Argentino M1879 Rolling Block. Is it worth restoring?

[gunner]

Sorry for hitchhiking the thread, but i see that you became a "Advisory Panel Member" Patrick. That hits the right one, Congrats!

All the best

Gunner

[killforfood]

Up to No. 4 now!

That right there's pretty funny

Well the progress on my M1879 Argentine Remington Rolling Block (Google plug) has slowed somemwhat.
Everything that I need to start reloading the .43 Spanish (Google plug) is on order except the Jamison .43 Spanish Brass (Google plug).
I ran out of cash and had to decide between, Shooting The .43 Spanish Rolling Block by Croft Barker (Google plug) or buying the Jamison .43 Spanish Brass (Google plug)
I decided knowledge before action was the wiser choice.
I will place the order for the Jamison .43 Spanish Brass (shameless Google plug) on the 15th.

I’m getting a better feel for the “boning up” process. I haven’t applied any more boiled linseed oil to the stock for four or five days now. I’m still seeing oil come up in a couple small places as I burnish across those areas. I will try again today and if it’s dry, my next application will need to be lighter. I’m wetting my rag with about half and half Turpentine to oil ratio. I’m confident that the last application soaked in very deep (maybe to deep) and that’s why it’s so slow to dry.
The first application was very rewarding but I can tell now that this is a process of diminishing returns. Perseverance will win the day though.

Acquiring the 2Fg Goex Black Powder turned into a rather interesting adventure.
The shop, er, uhm… The barn is located up in Corbett Oregon, out past the cabbage patches and Horse pastures on a dead end gravel road. Perfect! My kind of place. At first glance there is just an old weathered barn perched on the side of a steep hill. The door was open and I wandered in to find the usual old tractors and well used implements scattered about. If not for the signs welcoming me into a side door, I would have carefully backed out thinking I was trespassing. Bob greeted me at the door with a hearty “come on in”. It’s a very small shop but crammed full of every thing you could ever want for muzzle loading. I only had enough cash to buy the Black Powder and was bummed when I spied a cleaning jag that would fit my new 3/8” brass rod. Bob just handed me the jag and his business card and said “mail me the cash”! You will never see that kind of trust in a big city store. He also dug around in his possible bag and gave me a couple round balls to slug my bore with. Nice guy, I highly recommend him.
Muzzleloading and More

If you would like some advice on how to fix the hinge on your "hair-loom" shotgun, please post a couple of pictures showing details of the hinge components. Above all, a close up of the existing pin. Then I can give you some "spoon-feeding" about adjusting (more likely: replacing) it.

I think the hinge pin is ok but the locking lug is well worn and prevents the action from closing tightly. I think it will require welding and re-fitting. The M1879 Argentine Rolling Block (Google plug) is my first priority and I will only fiddle with the shotgun as time allows.

Joel

[Patrick Chadwick]

I’m wetting my rag with about half and half Turpentine to oil ratio.

I think I wrote: a rag moistened with turpentine - not wet. Look at my earlier postings.
So taper off the turpentine! It only has to be a trace, to stop the drop of BLO forming a sticky blob in one spot.
You are right about diminishing returns - go to once a week until the new year, then once a month for ever (I kid you not!). No - I am kidding - the next year will do - you are making up for a century of non-maintenance.

I think the hinge pin is ok but the locking lug is well worn and prevents the action from closing tightly. I think it will require welding and re-fitting.

If so, you're right!

[killforfood]

Patrick,

All of my mail order goodies have arrived!
1. Jamison .43 Spanish brass 20pc
2. 3/8” brass rod
3. Bullets, 439" diameter, 370 grain, round nose from Lyman 439-186 mold, SPG lube, 50pc
4. 2Fg Goex black powder
5. LEE .43 Spanish reloading dies
6. Croft Barker book, Shooting the .43 Spanish Rolling Block
7. Leather oil dye for stock touchup
8. Thompsons Bore Butter and SPG Bullet Lube

I also have plenty of .357 brass and a small feed store syringe from the last time we wormed the dogs. I’ll have to check on the 30 carbine brass. I likely have some but just don’t recall for sure.

I’m getting very excited to shoot the old Rolling Block for the first time!!!
My usual shooting place up in the woods is probably well buried in snow by now so I may have to come up with a plan B. I don’t normally shoot at ranges but I know enough folks that do that I should be able to work something out as a guest.
If time allows I’ll slug the bore and try to get some updated pictures posted in the next couple days. My work schedule has been brutal lately so no promises.

Joel.

[Patrick Chadwick]

Good news Joel!

If you have not already done so, you now need to acquire a length of 1/4"x24tpi (or 6mm x 1) threaded rod with 2 nuts that is long enough to reach from the muzzle right down to the block face when the action is closed, and still leave a bit sticking out of the muzzle for the two nuts. This is going to be used as a simple, but very effective "depth gauge" for checking head clearance (NOT headspace!) and establishing the seating depth and appropriate load for your cartridges. Let me know when you are ready, and I will then prepare and send the next instalment of this saga.

As soon as you have time to post some pics of the muzzle end of the bore, we can consider whether a recrowning is a) unnecessary b) advisable or c) unavoidable. But regardless of the conclusions, you will be able to try out the rifle as it is. The first time with new cartridges for BPCRs is anyway more for fire-forming than for accuracy!

Patrick

[Claven2]

I know you want to KISS, but you might also order some kapok for wadding and a card cutter in .43" from track of the wol or buffalo arms. I'm a huge believer in topping my BP loads with tamped kapok (e-bay has it, it's a natural fibre ideal for BP filler/wad), card, grease cookie and card topped by the bullet. Empty space in your case is not a good idea so unless you want to shoot stiff loads, you'll need this stuff to take up any empty space in the case.

[killforfood]

If you have not already done so, you now need to acquire a length of 1/4"x24tpi (or 6mm x 1) threaded rod.

Coincidentally, I do have 6’ sticks of All Thread. My summer hobby is building Sprint Kart engines and ARP (stud kit manufacturer) doesn’t have a kit that meets my needs so I cut my own studs from high tensile All Thread.

Let me know when you are ready, and I will then prepare and send the next installment of this saga.

Ready and waiting (patiently, of course).
Patrick, you always leave me hanging with partial juicy tidbits, always enough information to pique my interest but never enough to fully grasp the concept.

Oh well, "Tune in tomorrow — same Bat-time, same Bat-channel!"

As soon as you have time to post some pics of the muzzle end of the bore

My good friend Jake is home from college for Christmas break. His camera and picture taking skills far exceed my own. He’s staying with us but I’ve only seen him once due to my heavy work load. I have a Dentist appointment this afternoon so work will have to let me go at a decent hour today. Tonight I’ll re-assemble the rifle for a picture taking session.

I know you want to KISS, but you might also order some kapok for wadding and a card cutter in .43" from track of the wolf or buffalo arms.

I do want to learn the more advanced loading techniques but again, my budget is shot for this month. After the first of the year I will be able to add a wad cutter and other goodies to the shopping list.
I do appreciate the advice as to what should be on that list.

I'm a huge believer in topping my BP loads with tamped kapok (e-bay has it, it's a natural fibre ideal for BP filler/wad), card, grease cookie and card topped by the bullet.

Sure, I remember Kapok. It used to be the standard filler for those big old puffy life jackets we had to wear before closed cell foam came along. I don’t yet fully understand the grease cookie concept but no doubt I will learn soon.

Empty space in your case is not a good idea so unless you want to shoot stiff loads, you'll need this stuff to take up any empty space in the case.

I’m not talking from experience but won’t these heavy walled Jamison cases need a full load to fully fire form on the first shot? I don’t mind a stiff load. I bought one of those old Steyr Mannlicher M95 rifles that Big 5 was selling. It took me awhile to find some old Nazi crap to shoot in it but boy did those old loads put some wood to my shoulder, and a smile on my face.

[Patrick Chadwick]

It's all coming lads, it's all coming... just hang on a bit!

In the meantime, just in case you thought you had a muzzle problem...



That is, of course, the "before" picture".
The "after" picture is Coming Soon To A Forum Near You.

But I just have to finish fixing the leg on the oak bench first!

[Patrick Chadwick]

Refurbishing an Argentine RB - Part11

Part10 covered the use of a prospective 20-pack of ready-made ammunition. This section covers the measurements and procedures for establishing a first load for the Argentine Rolling Block in caliber .43 Spanish.

It has been established that:
1) The chamber is good, matching what meagre dimensional information is available.
2) The throat is good, no visible damage.
3) The bore shows some damage, but looks quite usable (I have shot with worse).
4) The muzzle looks like a potential problem. How much, remains to be assessed. A shooting test will be very helpful.

Joel, I hope you got all these item:

"Just get some empty and washed out milk cartons (if you have them where you reside). They are made from a kind of waxed card that is ideal for wads. Or the card used for six-packs of bottled beer (glazed on one side). And a wad cutter for .451, for muzzle-loading rifles. That is spot-on. Otherwise, 12mm will work. 1/2" is far too large. 7/16 is too small. And I don't suppose 29/64" exists!"

"And an empty 30M1 Carbine case (357 or 38 special will work, but the carbine case is easier to use)".

"And a couple of 5cc (5ml) one-way plastic syringes (without the needles of course) from the apothecary or (pack-ratting again) scrounged from your doctor or dentist."

To which must be added:

"If you have not already done so, you now need to acquire a length of 1/4"x24tpi (or 6mm x 1) threaded rod with 2 nuts that is long enough to reach from the muzzle right down to the block face when the action is closed, and still leave a bit sticking out of the muzzle for the two nuts. This is going to be used as a simple, but very effective "depth gauge" for checking head clearance (NOT headspace!) and establishing the seating depth and appropriate load for your cartridges. "

So let's find out how to use this home-made depth gauge!

To make it a bit easier, I have gone through some of the steps with one of my own rifles. It is the Boer Mauser, which I selected because a new member on the Mauser forum has a problem that can be narrowed down by using this measurement technique, and I am using a bit of creative laziness and writing all this just once.



Place the rifle on its side on a table. Cock the action (i.e. do not fire it - we do not want the firing pin to protrude)

Insert the threaded rod until it touches the bolt face (block face for the RB)
Run down the first nut until it just touches the muzzle, while keeping the rod in firm contact with the bolt/block face. Use one hand to hold the rod in contact, and run down the nut with the other.

Now, without disturbing the first nut, run down the second nut until it just touches the first. Make a mark with a felt-tipped pen on both nuts.



You have now "zeroed" the depth gauge. I know this is a bit of a 3-hand operation, and I had to use one to take the pics. But with some practice you can develop a feel that lets you measure accurately enough for the present purpose.

Now open the action (remove the bolt) and insert a bullet into the chamber. Use a rod, pencil or whatever to push the bullet into the chamber until it is touching the transition cone - the throat.



This will push the threaded rod back so that the two nuts are now some way from the muzzle.



Now, without disturbing the second nut (further from the muzzle) run up the first nut until it just touches the muzzle again. This requires some practice, as you need to sense when the rod just starts to lift off the tip of the bullet in the throat.

The distance that the nut has moved is the overall cartridge length (OAL) that would be required to have a bullet that just touches the lands before being fired.

Now withdraw the rod some way, so that you can use calipers to measure the distance between the nuts.



Clamp the caliper jaws and use the calipers as a gauge to see how your chosen bullet and cartridge case would match up. The results can be very illuminating!

Firstly, with the Sierra 168 gn boat-tail bullet





As you can see, the base of the boat tail will lose contact before the tip of the bullet engages the lands. That means gas blow-by (leading to throat erosion) and the bullet tipping in the free-flight phase, being rammed into the throat and engraved on the skew, with the result that, even if you have a perfect bore and muzzle, it will go way off course and possibly keyhole.on the target.

Secondly, with the Sierra 140 gn flat-base "spitzer" type bullet.





In this case, although the bullet is considerably lighter and shorter than the HPBT of the same weight, the fuller nose means that it touches the lands while about 1mm is still in the case neck. It will perform better than the boat-tail (which is why I purchased these bullets) but is still barely adequate (which is why I am going to try some that are even longer). The Norma 170 gn Vulkan, Hornady 154 gn or 175 gn Interlock, or Speer 160/175 gn Spitzers or magTips would be possible choices.

For nitro-powders you can back off this theoretical OAL by about 10 thou, and take that as a first-approximation ideal length. (Do NOT try for a much smaller value, or even zero, as bullet and seating tolerances will lead to a maybe/maybe not contact between bullet and throat, leading to unpredictable pressure variations etc).
Of course, in this case it is impossible to get anywhere near the ideal length, as there must be sufficient bullet in the neck of the loaded cartridge (about 1 caliber length) to ensure reliable and consistent seating.

For black-powder cartridges, the short, sharp transition cone usually makes it possible to use the ideal length, but you need to back off about 1 mm / 40 thou. This is necessary because fouling is always worst in the throat. If you seat the bullet too close to the lands, then the first shot will be OK, the second will require a good shove to get it to chamber, and the third will need a hammer. Rolling Blocks are touchy in this respect, as there is no bolt camming action to help you. So give it some space, unless you want to give the bore a complete clean after every shot.
The measured values for the Argentine chamber and the picture of the throat lead me to expect that the bullet will need to be seated with a good portion within the case neck. I would like to see the results of this measurement before proceeding to the actual loading of the cartridge.

That's all for tonight folks!

Patrick

[Claven2]

I’m not talking from experience but won’t these heavy walled Jamison cases need a full load to fully fire form on the first shot? I don’t mind a stiff load. I bought one of those old Steyr Mannlicher M95 rifles that Big 5 was selling. It took me awhile to find some old Nazi crap to shoot in it but boy did those old loads put some wood to my shoulder, and a smile on my face.

Essentially you do not want empty space in a BP cartridge or you could risk rupturing the case and/or ringing the chamber, if not blowing up the gun. With some calibers, it's not an issue if you just fill the case minus the volume of the bullet, but you would still use a card and preferably a small grease cookie to keep the fouling soft. Patrick will likely cover that later.

I'm not sure if .43 Mauser is one of those rounds that requires filler or not. I shoot a lot of .577-450 and you DEFINITELY need a filler. Filling a modern extruded case would likely grenade a martini action.