Singer cruciform rare?

[peregrinvs]

I bought one of these about 10-15 years ago and from memory I paid £65.

Not cheap, but one's I've seen on eBay recently seem to go for nearly double that so je ne regrette rien.

Mark

[limpetmine]

They are being faked by milling the grooves into a standard spike bayonet. This shortens the overall length by a few millimeters. That is the clue.

[Peter Laidler]

Can you elaborate on that for the masses Limpet? I ask because in the course of normal use, we, as Armourers would allow blades to be resharpened many times losing length each time. For example, at tha large training centres, we would accept re-sharpened/pointed L1A1 blades down to 7.5" length before they'd be scrapped.

On the basis that a faked cruciform bayonet could be a few mm's shorter than the real McCoy is a charter for fakers to get faking. Is there anything else that can be used to identify a cruciform fake anone out there in forum land?

[limpetmine]

Mr. Laidler, All I know is what I read, what other people tell me, and what I've discovered for myself. I have a picture somewhere (too many pictures!!!) of a milled fake next to a real cruciform bayonet.
The milling process, to get the grooves to the point, require the loss of a few MM of OAL. The picture I nicked from the web may be on my work computer, but I'll check it and post it when I find it. Without having it in hand, I don't know of another way to check its veracity.

[Peter Laidler]

Thanks for that info Limpet. That's what's good about this site. All this info is here - somewhere - just waiting to get out. Someone else PM'd me to the effect that a batch of fakes emerged a couple of years ago with G - arrow - R as the cypher instead of the CORRECT G - crown - R. Some other fakes have a step where the blades join the socket part too. There's some good pics a few threads back from this that illustrate a correct point and logo

[peregrinvs]

See pages 293-296 of The Spirit of the Pike by Graham Priest for information on fake No.4 Mk1 bayonets + illustrations.

(an essential purchase if you collect 20th century British bayonets - more detailed than Skennerton)

Before I bought my real one, I got burned with a fake. It was partly my own fault for not doing my research beforehand and I later sold it to Old-Smithy. (of this parish)

Mark

[tankhunter]

Thanks for that info Limpet. That's what's good about this site. All this info is here - somewhere - just waiting to get out. Someone else PM'd me to the effect that a batch of fakes emerged a couple of years ago with G - arrow - R as the cypher instead of the CORRECT G - crown - R. Some other fakes have a step where the blades join the socket part too. There's some good pics a few threads back from this that illustrate a correct point and logo

Peter, The CORRECT MKI Should have either the small stylised crown & GR on the socket, OR, a larger finely impressed & detailed crown & GR. The fakes were usualy made from MKII's with flutes machined onto the spike. ANY spike made after a MKI will NOT officially have been stamped with this crown & Royal inistials.

[old-smithy]

One good pointer is the tip, the fakes being made from MkII's etc often have a screw drive type point which the MkI dosn't.

[Peter Laidler]

It's really amazing to me (and yes, I might be a bit niave I suppose) that bayonets are faked! Whatever next. Who'd have thought a few years ago that they'd be faking No4 cruciforms and SMLE quillions..........

Are there any other 20th century bayonets that are being faked? You must know Old Smithy.

I remember when we used to be knee deep in old 1985 and 1986 serially numbered SA80 bayonets with bottle openers on the cast cross-piece. You just don't see them now - all the bottle openers were cut/ground off just prior to the acceptance. Even the serially numbered ones are rare birds now. Not that any squaddie would ever die of thirst for want of a bottle opener!

[tankhunter]

It's really amazing to me (and yes, I might be a bit niave I suppose) that bayonets are faked! Whatever next. Who'd have thought a few years ago that they'd be faking No4 cruciforms and SMLE quillions..........

Are there any other 20th century bayonets that are being faked? You must know Old Smithy.

I remember when we used to be knee deep in old 1985 and 1986 serially numbered SA80 bayonets with bottle openers on the cast cross-piece. You just don't see them now - all the bottle openers were cut/ground off just prior to the acceptance. Even the serially numbered ones are rare birds now. Not that any squaddie would ever die of thirst for want of a bottle opener!

Peter, Fakes now abound! Jap Arisaka, German K98k's, M1 Carbine, Indian Khukri Bladed socket bayonets, Elcho, Brundswick, Just to name a few. I am aware also of some early US socket & trowel bladed examples.
I guess it's all about supply & demand. When the demand goes up, supply is limited, MORE cash is offered. The Upped price is then the accepted norm! I have mentioned this also with regards to Deacts in the UK.
I am waiting for fake No.5's to appear next! I wouldnt be suprised!