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    Terrible shooting Lowe 1895 Chilean mauser

    Hi All,

    I have a beautiful 1895 Chileanicon 7mm Mauser mfg by Lowe in Germanyicon. Wood and bluing are mint but bore is dark with sharp and strong rifling. I hoped it would shoot well but it keyholes at 25 yards. Not sure why. I cleaned the bore as well as I could by hand first.

    I bought commercial Rem 7mm 140gr soft points to try out in it. Do you think it needs a heavier bullet to stabilize?

    Thanks for your thoughts.
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    Heavier bullets would be less likely to stabilize as they, as a rule, are longer. Check the crown for wear, esp. uneven wear or "bell mouthing", first. Measure the bore dimension. Even calipers will do in a pinch, for a rough idea.

    The dark bore indicates pitting, however small, and may sometimes abuse the bullet jacket terribly. Usually it won't cause keyholing, but it might.

    Welcome to the forums! Sorry you had to start out with a drama.

    Check back later, sometimes it takes a while to get things going.

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    comet, first use an aggressive bore cleaner like sweets762,shooters choice,montana extreme or the like[ NOT hoppes #9 all that's good for is to use as aftershave] remember clean from the breech end using a boreguide, it may take even a few day but get that bore clean and then keep it clean and the next step is inspection of the crown [re-crowing is a cheap fix] and bingo accuracy is back to the old warhorse..

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    These early 7mm's have very long throats. Try a heavy bullet and use a lower speeds. Good luck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Calif-Steve View Post
    These early 7mm's have very long throats. Try a heavy bullet and use a lower speeds.
    Hadn't thought about the long throats! So a RN 170 odd grain bullet, yes?

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    The deep throat syndrome again?

    Quote Originally Posted by comet View Post
    I have a beautiful 1895 Chilean 7mm Mauser mfg by Lowe in Germanyicon. Wood and bluing are mint but bore is dark with sharp and strong rifling. I hoped it would shoot well but it keyholes at 25 yards. Not sure why. I cleaned the bore as well as I could by hand first.

    I bought commercial Rem 7mm 140gr soft points to try out in it. Do you think it needs a heavier bullet to stabilize?
    Comet, the previous postings are correct. the purpose of this posting is to help you to establish the principle factor (there may be more than one).

    Keyholing is caused by the bullet being skewed off-axis when it leaves the muzzle. This can happen when the bullet leaves the muzzle and receives an asymmetrical thrust while emerging.

    So first, as jmoore suggests, first check out the muzzle + crown. If this is damaged, slightly bell-mouthed or worn unevenly (a common result of over-enthusiatic use of pull-through) then any competent gunsmith can fix it by recrowning, using a standard crown-cutter for the 7mm bore. A badly bell-mouthed muzzle may, however, be past that, requiring counterboring as a desperate measure.

    I doubt that the general state of the main length of the bore is what causes keyholing. Damage that could cause skewing within the bore, such as a ringed bore, would be easily visible to the naked eye.

    This leaves the No. 1 culprit for old service rifles: the deep throat syndrome, allied to the boat-tail illusion. The boat-tail illusion is the erroneous conviction that boat-tail bullets that produce excellent results with modern match rifles made to tight tolerances and SAAMI or CIP dimensions are also the best to use for old military rifles made for very differently shaped bullets decades before the standards bodies were even set up.

    With the exception of my M1917 30-06 and Israeli Mauser in 7.62x51 (a.k.a. .308 WIN) most of the other old service rifles in my possession show throats that are too long for optimum performance with boat-tail bullets. And none of these were made to modern SAAMI dimensions. Many of them were made in the days when "spitzer" bullets were the latest thing, and they all perform better with bullets with a flat base, long cylindrical section, and round nose.

    Why is this so?
    Because in the deep-throated rifles, the boat-tail base loses contact with the case mouth before the bullet touches the vestigial lands at the start of the transition cone (the throat). During the brief period of free-flight between losing contact wth the case neck and being engraved in the throat, the bullet can skew. It is then rammed into the throat at an angle, and becomes engraved on the skew. After that, a perfect bore and muzzle will not save it from going off-course as soon as it emerges from the muzzle into free flight.

    The only way to prevent this is to keep the bullet on the "straight and narrow" path as far as possible. Which means using a bullet with a flat base, long cylindrical section, and round nose, as already stated. It might seem plausible to use a thicker, cast lead bullet, but this option is usually severely limited by the simple fact that (to take the case of my Argentineicon Engineer's Carbine) a bullet that fills the throat expands the neck so much that it is impossible to chamber the cartridge. And, of course, there is the worrying aspect of a possibly hazardous increase in pressure caused by, basically, jamming in an oversized bullet.

    To establish to what extent the throat may be a major factor in the keyholing shown by your rifle, and which bullets are likely to work better, I therefore invite you to read "Refurbishing an Argentine RB - Part 11" in the "Restorer's Corner" forum, which I shall be posting within the next 2 hours. I do not have a Chilean 1895, but I do have a 7mm Boer Mauser (1893 model) and it ought to have pretty much the same chambering and rifling dimensions.

    See you later, in the "Restorer's Corner" - it might help you to solve the problem!

    Last edited by Patrick Chadwick; 12-21-2010 at 06:30 PM.

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    Clean the bore with Remington 40-X bore cleaner then slug it and see what it measures. Bet it's .287 or over. Don't know why but some 7x57's were made with oversized bores. Had one come through the shop where i worked bout 20 years ago. That one measured .290 dia. QC inspector musta been drunk that day.

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    Comet, please take another look at the posting of Part 11 in the Restorer's Corner forum. I made a mistake with bullet weights. The 140 gn spitzer is the one I erroneously compared with a 168gn HPBT. 155-175 gn spitzers would be very much better!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick View Post
    Comet, the previous postings are correct. the purpose of this posting is to help you to establish the principle factor (there may be more than one).

    Keyholing is caused by the bullet being skewed off-axis when it leaves the muzzle. This can happen when the bullet leaves the muzzle and receives an asymmetrical thrust while emerging.

    So first, as jmoore suggests, first check out the muzzle + crown. If this is damaged, slightly bell-mouthed or worn unevenly (a common result of over-enthusiatic use of pull-through) then any competent gunsmith can fix it by recrowning, using a standard crown-cutter for the 7mm bore. A badly bell-mouthed muzzle may, however, be past that, requiring counterboring as a desperate measure.

    I doubt that the general state of the main length of the bore is what causes keyholing. Damage that could cause skewing within the bore, such as a ringed bore, would be easily visible to the naked eye.

    This leaves the No. 1 culprit for old service rifles: the deep throat syndrome, allied to the boat-tail illusion. The boat-tail illusion is the erroneous conviction that boat-tail bullets that produce excellent results with modern match rifles made to tight tolerances and SAAMI or CIP dimensions are also the best to use for old military rifles made for very differently shaped bullets decades before the standards bodies were even set up.

    With the exception of my M1917 30-06 and Israeli Mauser in 7.62x51 (a.k.a. .308 WIN) most of the other old service rifles in my possession show throats that are too long for optimum performance with boat-tail bullets. And none of these were made to modern SAAMI dimensions. Many of them were made in the days when "spitzer" bullets were the latest thing, and they all perform better with bullets with a flat base, long cylindrical section, and round nose.

    Why is this so?
    Because in the deep-throated rifles, the boat-tail base loses contact with the case mouth before the bullet touches the vestigial lands at the start of the transition cone (the throat). During the brief period of free-flight between losing contact wth the case neck and being engraved in the throat, the bullet can skew. It is then rammed into the throat at an angle, and becomes engraved on the skew. After that, a perfect bore and muzzle will not save it from going off-course as soon as it emerges from the muzzle into free flight.

    The only way to prevent this is to keep the bullet on the "straight and narrow" path as far as possible. Which means using a bullet with a flat base, long cylindrical section, and round nose, as already stated. It might seem plausible to use a thicker, cast lead bullet, but this option is usually severely limited by the simple fact that (to take the case of my Argentineicon Engineer's Carbine) a bullet that fills the throat expands the neck so much that it is impossible to chamber the cartridge. And, of course, there is the worrying aspect of a possibly hazardous increase in pressure caused by, basically, jamming in an oversized bullet.

    To establish to what extent the throat may be a major factor in the keyholing shown by your rifle, and which bullets are likely to work better, I therefore invite you to read "Refurbishing an Argentine RB - Part 11" in the "Restorer's Corner" forum, which I shall be posting within the next 2 hours. I do not have a Chilean 1895, but I do have a 7mm Boer Mauser (1893 model) and it ought to have pretty much the same chambering and rifling dimensions.

    See you later, in the "Restorer's Corner" - it might help you to solve the problem!

    A very excellent and detailed post. Try a flat base bullet, before visiting a gunsmith, your rifle was made long before boat tails.
    "Self-realization. I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, "... I drank what?"

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