Ishapore 2A1: What might red paint on receiver indicate?

[mkmadron]

All:
I recently purchased a beautiful 1967 Ishapore Enfield 2A1, and I have checked headspacing prior to taking it to the range. I still have a small degree of hesitancy in firing it, due to a small strip of red paint on the top of the reciever, at the stripper clip feeding guide. My concern is that it may have been placed there to identify a serious issue with the weapon. Any ideas what the Indian armorers might have been trying to indicate?

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[Alan de Enfield]

As far as I know a red band meant "do not fire".
A red band, white band, red band (three stripes) meant DP rifle.

[Peter Laidler]

A red band of some sort is usually a warning signal of some sort, like Beyond repair/provisionally condemned - or something like that. But it's usually a distinct marking, as in a 2" wide band. A line of red paint on the charger bridge doesn't seem to indicate something as drastic as that.........

[Thunderbox]

Could be anything - maybe even just an indicator of calibre, if some provincial Police force happened to be using a mix of .303 and 7.62mm Ishys.

[bigduke6]

Could be anything - maybe even just an indicator of calibre, if some provincial Police force happened to be using a mix of .303 and 7.62mm Ishys.

Bit like the Home Gaurd when they took possesion of M1917 (P17) and M1903 rifles, but these had a broad red band around the middle of the stock to Identify they are .30-06. For anyone interested in this there is a great article about some of the M1903,s that returned to the US, on the M1903 forum plus think its in the knowledge libary, Badger may be able to stick a link to this. Basicly the rifles were greased up and crated and remained like that until recently.

[mkmadron]

Thank You all for your insights! Forgive my ignorance, as I am new to collecting, but what does "DP" mean?

[Peter Laidler]

An old friend of mine built the garage at the bottom of his garden in the very early 50's from P'14 and 17 rifle crates. He set the upright frames so that they'd match the lengths of the pine sides, bases and tops. They were so oil/grease impregnated that it was impossible to paint them. As a result, inside you could still read the old US Army/Government lettering. One I recall was the Ordnance Depot in Augusta Georgia.

He died a couple of years ago. A wartime navigator in tyhe RAF and at his funeral, by arrangement, they flew a plane, low over the church. I spoke to them afterwards and their answer was '............we always look after our own'

Wherever you are now Terry, the garage is still standing

[Beerhunter]

what does "DP" mean?

A jolly good question. Translated, it means: (For) Drill Purposes (Only)

However what constitutes DP has varied from country to country and over the years as have the markings. In the UK an the UK a DP is indicated by white stripes with the letters DP in black.

The rule of thumb is NEVER try to fire a DP.

Additionally, as has been said, in the past in the UK, Red Stripes have indicated: "NOT .303".

[Alan de Enfield]

Thank You all for your insights! Forgive my ignorance, as I am new to collecting, but what does "DP" mean?

I thought Peter's article was in the 'library' but I cannot find it so here it is :

DP rifles in Britain

I have mentioned ‘Britain’ here but while I can’t include Canada, I can certainly include New Zealand and Australia with a degree of certainty plus India, whose Army liaison Officer at work ran his eyes over this paper for me. I have also mentioned DP too and in this respect, it isn’t meant to mean ‘DRILL’ in the parade square context, it is meant to indicate practicing your rifle ‘training drills’. And it’s not only rifles that were downgraded to DP either because in the days of the old ‘number’ radio sets, many of these were classified as DP sets too.

When I read about DP rifles in various places, I get the impression from the armchair experts that they are formulated by someone in the Armourers shop who decides that he’ll make/convert a few rifles in order to …………. NOTHING could be more dangerous nor further from the truth. One other thing too. Do not mix up DP rifles with the ‘higher’ standard (?) ‘sub-standard’ rifles that trickled out of service in the early 50’s. At least there were gauging limits for those!

When need exists for such rifles, the idea is put up to the Brigade Training Major for example and ‘staffed’ up the chain of command where a decision on the matter will be reached after due questioning of all concerned. I’ll take a fictitious unit training for an operational role in bongo-bongo land. The attrition rate of the weapons on the training team, due to the arduous nature of the training is critical is such that they need 20 rifles and 6 GPMG’s that can be used and abused. Authority is given for them to be issued these ‘extra’ DP classified weapons from Ordnance stockpiles. So, in the normal course of events, these are issued from training stocks.

But, let’s say the DP stocks aren’t available, then authority will be issued FROM THE MINISTRY OF DEFENCE no less, for such weapons to be made available. Ordnance stores would then select from returned weapons that are deemed to be ‘ZF’ (that’s an Armourers technical explanation that I won’t go into) or BER (Beyond Economic Repair) to select the required amount for conversion to DP specification.

Now, if the required amount cannot be made from the ZF and BER stocks, then the remainder will simply be converted from standard war stocks. You will see from this, that while on the face of it, some 30 years down the line that your bright and shining No1 or No4 rifle LOOKS bright and shining, under the bright and shiny surface might be lurking a metallurgical nightmare ……………… Let me give you an example

During the 60’s and 70’s there was a constant need for No4 DP rifles, not only for cadet Forces but Parachute training too where the actual carrying of a rifle was more important than what the weapon was for. The reason for the attrition in this case was quite understandable. So a small but continuous rolling programme of ‘DP-ing’ was undertaken. Naturally many ZF/BER No4’s plus otherwise serviceable rifles were put into the programme plus a healthy dollop of L1A1 rifles too. Not only were these worn out rifles put into the pot, but we later learned, several thousand extensively fire damaged No4, L1A1 rifles and Bren guns that had been involved in a massive fire. These were aesthetically cleaned down, rebuilt to DP standard and profusely marked JUST so that there could be no doubt about their status. Oh, they looked very nice but what had gone on under the surface was a matter of conjecture. Would YOU fire one? I’ve been an Armourer for a couple of years and while I or your local gunsmith could examine one and give it a bright clean bill of health, would YOU trust it. NO, I wouldn’t either!

Let me give you another example too. NO dates here of course but ‘recently’ several hundred assorted weapons were recovered from a fire ravaged/damaged ship, sunk in low water (and later towed out to sea and scuttled). These were all quickly earmarked for scrap and eventually side tracked for DP/Training use. Like the other example, these were also cleaned, and refurbished, painted and ‘restored’ to aesthetically ‘serviceable’ condition. Oh, they looked good but within a couple of years, these had started to rust from under the welds, seams and joints.

And before I forget, let me remind you of something else too, JUST in case you’re tempted to buy one to use as spare parts. This is what the Armourers bible says. ‘……..it will be assembled as far as possible with components which are below the standard required for a service weapon’. And another thing you ought to remember. There were NO gauging limits for DP rifles. Mmmmmmm, food for thought there!

That’s about it. In my very limited experience as an Armourer and having overseen some of these DP programmes, I can tell you with certainty that they were all profusely marked DP so that their status was unambiguous. Agreed, some might be taken straight from stocks, but the rest ……………

Would YOU trust one? There certainly IS a place for a DP rifle in a collection as it forms a place in the lineage of the breed. But in the cupboard or rack or on the wall. NOT on the firing point.


And how does he know this? An Engineering Graduate, Capt. Peter Laidler is the senior Armourer in the British Army since serving his apprenticeship between January1963 and 66. He is currently the senior technical Officer at the Small Arms School at Warminster. And oversaw the introduction of the current L59 series of DP rifle. Or he just guessed. Pick what you think suits!
Resurrect a DP rifle from ANY nation......., no fear!

[Thunderbox]

This is a lot of fuss over a blob of red paint.....