VICTORY MODEL? 45 and R on barrel

[Johnny Peppers]

I can assure you it is not 45 acp as the cylinder is too long and an acp round when inserted into cylinder goes through and falls to the floor. it is 45 colt. I do however think the barrel was replaced or at least monkeyed about with (like you saidpossibly for the American market) or at least shortened as the S and part of the M in smith is missing indicating that something is a miss. It also could be that the brits crudely marked the barrel 45 AR so they would not put the .455 in the wrong gun over their and the barrel work was done cause they just needed a shorter gun or it was shortened some time after but at a time when collectors weren't in mind such as to meet their needs you know what with the WAR and what not.

The first Colt Model 1917 revolvers did not have a shoulder in the cylinder, and the .45ACP they were made for would fall down into the cylinder. They were intended to be used with the half moon clips. After WWI the .45 Auto Rim cartridge was developed so that the pistol could be fired without the clips.
You can bet your paycheck that the British didn't alter the pistol. Some of the Colt SAA's they bought were 7 1/2 in barrel, and they were not altered. All they wanted was pistols, and customizing them was the last thing on their mind. The cutting, drilling, and stamping was done after it was sold by the British government.
What are the markings under the crown which is under the broad-arrow property mark?

[DaveN]

H under U4

U4
H


D X
3

the x is bigger and D and 3 are with in the X D to the left 3 in lower of X.



Johnny so your saying the 45 AR is 45 ACP and some kind of clips are needed to fire this pistol. like the clips you can use to speed load revolvers in competition. I thought the extractor to unload the brass was the half moon (built in clip they were referring to).

[Johnny Peppers]

.45 Auto Rim was the cartridge developed so that revolvers chambered for .45 ACP could be fired without having to use the clips.
The U4 identifies the inspector doing the proofing, and the H identifies the facility where it was proofed.
The picture shows the .45 ACP in the half moon clips.

[jmoore]

Dang, it looks like a "first model" .455 that was later converted to .45ACP by facing off the rear of the cylinder. Think "triple lock" but in .455- pretty scarce and some folk think they're worth a bit, regardless- IF they are in good shooting condition.

However: (this is just the "ten second photo perusal" evaluation)- The barrel at the front of the frame looks odd, though. Perhaps it has been shortened at the back end and the extractor rod shortened as well. That would throw it right out of collector status!

---------- Post added at 05:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:33 PM ----------

Yup, it's a triple lock. And the barrel still seems short on the back end. Too bad.

[jmoore]

Robbed this image off the internets:


Ignore the caliber, the nickel plating, and the overall shorter barrel- the .44 Spl cartridges do give scale, though- maybe 3/8-7/16" was removed from the rear end of the barrel -at least- on DaveN's example.

Photo courtesy some fellow called "tipoc"

Note the swelling of the barrel where it butts up against the frame- DaveN's photos show a revolver that's had a bunch removed at the rear- why?

BTW, I seem to recall something like 5000 "triple lock" .455s mfg, but don't hold me to that.

[browningautorifle]

DaveN's photos show a revolver that's had a bunch removed at the rear- why?

Maybe there were rings to contend with.

[jmoore]

DaveN's photos show a revolver that's had a bunch removed at the rear- why?

Maybe there were rings to contend with.

Maybe, but it's an odd place. Usually a bulged barrel there means a distressed frame as well.

And, depending on S/N, it's most likely a .455 weapon bought during WWI by the British gov't in the first of two runs- the second was much larger, but was all 2nd model. The grips are correct, regardless, but that's about all that's good. Even if it's functionally sound, the cylinder throats on these are typically huge- 0.457-8". Maybe even 0.460". Poor little .45 ACP/AR bullets just wallow around for a while until they MIGHT catch a bit of rifling after entering the barrel, which is only about 0.003-4" too big...Accuracy, as you might expect on one of these conversions is typically not stellar.

[DaveN]

I will be going to the gun show on the 19th and I have some contacts there that can give it the live look see. I know the ones i can trust. Just looking to help a friend clean out his closet, and if he can make a few dollars then great. I do think it is a 1st model and ser# is 4xx or 4xx x so either 400 or 4000 as was stated only 5000 made might give evidence of that. As you said the barrel seems messed with. If I find alot of messed with guns it would seem I might find a truly rare and expensive one eventually. This web site has been a great help, thanks to all.

[jmoore]

I reckon you've got to weed out about 95% of the stuff you see to find "good" items. Probably 99.7% to find outstanding. Educating the eyeball to quickly weed out the duds is a great help, but I've found gunshows to be too much to process properly, unless you accept that you're going to miss stuff. I just can't stand the sensory overload much anymore.

BTW, there were about 6000 1st Model .455s, and they were in their own serial number block starting with S/N 1 apparently. Several hundred 1st model frames were in the 2nd model S/N block, but I don't know if they were mfg. w/ the shrouded extractor rod type barrel. The 1st Models also generally didn't originally have a caliber marking on the barrel, so, that might explain the odd "45 AR" marks.

(Info from Supica and Naha's book, 3rd Ed. but I don't have it with me right now, so details are a little fuzzy.)

---------- Post added at 02:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:47 AM ----------

Your finds to date have been quite good, BTW! They're odd enough to make them worth saving. I think your musket qualifies as rare, but don't worry about expensive- those end up either being transitory or annoying more often than not. Just decide what YOU like.

[DaveN]

Thanks. I don't know if I find them or if they find me. It's all been fun though and doing the research is a good endeavor as well. I do agree the shows do a little overload but feel bad when I miss one( the local ones) which add up to 4-5 a year. if I traveled say 100 miles in any direction (except east of course) I could go to one every other week) no thanks.