30 round mags. Key features to look for???

[trekvana]

Hey guys,

so I just read the CMP article on how to identify a real USGI 30 rounder and the article states that reproduction 30 rounders "...have no roll crimp, have the straight cut back, and a rectangular bolster".

Can someone be as so kind to show a picture of these 3 features? The article explains these features using words but it would be nice to have some pictures for completeness sake.

cheers
george

Information

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[trekvana]

hmmmm after reading a little bit more on 30 round mags on the forum here, there seems to a little resignation to show pictures detailing the exact things to look for in fear of fakers finding the pics and hence making better fakes (as Mr. Ricca stated recently). this is perfectly understandable and so, ill take my leave on this thread

[imarangemaster]

Most (but not all) aftermarket/fake/commercial 30 rounders do not have sharp corners on the back side of the magazine, and the rear "flat" is slightly rounded. If you know what to look for, you can spot an aftermarket a mile away. USGI 30s were never marked just "M2" and there were very few marked M2 along with KI (if I recall). Most aftermarket 30s (except Korean UU) have terrible springs. The one Commercial 30 I have that is an excellent build had a terrible spring, so I put a USGI one in it. I have seen some of the cheaper aftermarkets that actually had a 15 round spring stretched out!

[Bill Ricca]

in fear of fakers finding the pics and hence making better fakes

Agreed. It has happened with many items already.

[us019255]

Agreed. It has happened with many items already.

Disclaimer: I am completely against fakes and faking. I support anything that will slow the fakers down!

Unless fakers are much more stupid than I think they are, not posting pictures of bad fakes will not stop them from making better fakes if the profit is there.

If I were a faker, after finding that my efforts were not being rejected by the buyers, I would purchase a known authentic item, and by comparing it to my or other fakes and the description of ways to tell, (if available) I would then know how to change things to get my fakes accepted.

[Dave-In-Maine]

[B]Disclaimer: I am completely against fakes and faking.

Ditto. I am against fake items being sold as legit, as well.

I have noticed over the years of daily lurking here (and seldom posting because I rarely have anything to say), and an earlier forum, that there is a reluctance to describe details "so the fakers don't get this information." Many of the most knowledgeable members here are members of The Carbine Club (I was for a few years as well), and rightfully want to protect the staggering amount of diligent research and documentation that these enthusiasts/historians have developed over the years. I totally respect that, with a huge "howevers."

However, in many posts there are sometimes references to specific issues of the Carbine Club newsletter, and sometimes specific page references, likewise the War Baby books or other research volumes. All of this steers one toward the "correct" information without actually revealing it here.

However, I believe that a smart faker would have loooong ago joined the CC and bought all of those back issues with all of that amazing amount of research and documentation. Or is maybe a legitimate collector on one hand, but unscrupulous faker on the other. Point being, the information is out there, published, documented, cross-referenced and available.

I hate to be a cynic, but believing that not posting accurate information on this particular website will keep the information away from the fakers just seems to be so very very naive. They either have, or will get, the information.

Just my $0.02 worth, as an enthusiast and collector (of sorts) since the mid-1970's. Not trying to irritate anyone or inflame anything............

[Harlan (Deceased)]

Hi Dave.

No offense taken.
Fakers (counterfeiters) have become much better from using many sources.

But even some of the most notorious counterfeiting scumbags still do make repetitive mistakes that would be easy for them to eliminate, and I for one won't post their errors here.

Sure, many will probably figure most things out eventually, but I'm not going to make it any easier for them.
I believe there are many that are not 'smart fakers' or even care enough to buy newsletters or research. Most crooks are lazy. I know that there are many (such as George) who read internet these forums all of the time trying to gather info of how people spot their fakes, or any other means to help their crooked enterprises.

Unfortunately their business is still booming, as it is in every collecting field where there's a demand for anything that's become expensive because of rarity. There's always going to be scum who'll steal and it's completely ruined many collecting fields.

We could debate this forever and never get to a solution - Educating collectors, or educating crooks.
It's up to personal preference if one wants to provide hard earned info on a public forum.

I'll help people privately, person to person if I feel they're legitimate. There's no way to know for sure if they really are, but usually you can get a good idea. I still feel it's better than posting on a public forum where the 'Georges' can easily Google things they want to find these days.

~ Harlan

[Bill Ricca]

There are several ways to judge a fake item without revealing the details, Here are a few examples:

1. Widget sells for a large amount because the market place is lacking of supply, yet there are others available by one, two, or a few specific dealers, over and over again, forever.
2. Widget sells for $50.00, yet an eBay dealer always has them for $19.95, endless supply
3. Dealers' descriptions state they do not know the authenticity. These prevent them from being accused of fraud. If experienced dealers know their items are original, they will state "originality" on the description to increase the demand. Beware of lack of statement or a statement that claims "I have no knowledge as to originality" or similar words.

For the newbies: Always contact the sellers and ask if the items are original. Those that reply "I do not know", stay away from it. If purchased post it on these message boards with the sellers' names and then determine who you believe in the board responses.

Once you know what you purchased is fake, return it to the seller with a letter explaining to the company that they should not use false advertising to sell their products.

If you keep the item and do nothing about it, you will just encourage the company to continue with fraud.

[Harlan (Deceased)]

All very good advice Bill.

You'd think some of it would be common sense, but I guess many people think these parts are commonly available and they think sellers are all honest (?)

For over a year I've avoided even checking anymore to prevent the aggravation, but I checked George and a couple of others just the other day. They're still selling the the same crap week after week. George now covers his new parts with some kind of green stuff, and points out the green color. What amazes me the most is they all have good feedback now. I think there are many new people these days who just don't know the difference, or just don't care.
It seems that every new carbine owner thinks 'restoring' is all that carbines are about and it didn't used to be that way. Ultimately it will ruin the collectability of all but a few documented originals, and they'll be out of reach for all but a few. Around here it's become difficult to even find carbines at gun shows that haven't been messed up with fake parts. The fake sights and bands stick out like a sore thumb from ten feet away. At this rate someday a good original documented mixmaster may become rare and hard to find.

I used to collect WWII helmets but it got so bad it wasn't even fun anymore. Even the once common USGI M1 helmets became expensive. Many of the fakes became so good it was almost impossible to tell what's authentic or not without holding it in your hand, and sometimes even then it's hard to tell at first. (Then a true, more knowledgeable collector will point out the fake parts, or restoration and your expensive helmet becomes worth 20% of what you paid for it)
Today only about 5% of popular helmets on auction sites are 100% real. Now you have to buy directly from a certified dealer or trusted collector and pay an enormous price most of the time just to get anything authentic.

I see the same thing happening to carbines, and hope it doesn't get that bad someday where it's a hobby only the wealthy can enjoy. People such as George are flooding the market to the point it may become difficult to find a carbine that hasn't been messed up with reproduction parts. Even the carbines that have been restored with authentic parts can usually be determined as restored when under scrutiny. They're all over the gun auction sites and still selling for high dollars. It was the same way for German helmets, but after a while the restored helmets lost their true market value tremendously.

It's just a rant, and nothing can be done about it. As long as everyone wants an early unrestored carbine all pf this will go on, and the fakers will make money but ultimately it will probably mess up the whole thing. As people get wise that very few carbines are authentic the values go down, and then they'll even question the ones that are authentic. Who wants to pay the huge price for what's supposed to be real when it becomes common knowledge that 99% of the 'correct' carbines have been restored and you just wasted a lot of money.

If interested, here is a link to a site that shows a bit about the state of German helmets today -
(Check the fake section and the market prices for authentic helmets)
World War II German Helmets - Buy the BEST HERE!