No4Mk1 T Can of worms

[Garandrew]

I dont like opening a can of worms, but can I get some other opinions as to the look of overnumbering in the wood butt stock of this otherwise original S51 stock?
Note the numbers arent clear in the wood, but you can see most of them, even the 2nd has part of a 4 in it..
Is the bracket original? Anyone else have original T's done like this? I have alot to be concerned about if its not original armourers work..Is the bracket renumbered? The original magazine has an Australian /l\D on the spine, Aussie work?



I just want to make sure others have seen this...??? The scope SN should match the wood, and the brackets should match the rifle SN
Thx, Andy

Information

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[jmoore]

Sorry, can't make out enough detail to help.

Magazine is for a No.4. yes?

[Amatikulu]

The butt stock has clearly been over stamped. It was my understanding that when a replacement scope was fitted, the old number was either "barred" out or sanded out and the new number was applied above or below the old one. I have never seen an over stamped scope number on a butt stock. However, this is a question for P.L. or other service armorers with experience to confirm if this was a common practice.

[Brian Dick]

Amatikulu is exactly correct. I'm always leery of one that's sanded out though. I had an L42 that actually had a piece of wood neatly dovetailed into where the old number was and the new one stamped into it so anything's possible. You know damned well it was done by an Armourer who took great pride in his wood patching abilities too. The correct method as stated above was to "bar out" with a file or use correct "cancellation" stamps which leaves the original telescope number/numbers quite readable. I have a personal 1943 No.4T that's had four scopes during it's service carreer. Some are barred out with a file and some are cancelled using the stamp and the last one is matching. I think the bracket on this one's been renumbered too. It's obviously filed and the number "4" is a bit suspicious because I've never seen one with the base serif on any I've examined including ones I have here now. The same held true for renumbered brackets although there again, anything's possible. The old numbers were barred out or cancelled and are still very readable in most cases. Sometimes it may not be very pretty though. With the escalating value of these rifles and telescopes, there are unscrupulous sellers who'll muck around faking just like they do with anything else of value. I've got a "less telescope" rifle for sale here that was imported by the great old English brothers of Hercules Surplus in Toronto that came over as complete in the 1960's but is still a "less telescope" rifle. Even the chest is matching and marked as such. I was recently told it's no good because it doesn't have the finish "T" on the left hand side of the body or the EFD examiner's stamps and telescope number on the forend and buttstock. Well, it could very well if I was unscrupulous. It's a perfect and near new condition example too. The guy actually incinuated that it was a fake I'd built up! Go figure. I only wish I was so skilled!! Just my 2 cents so take it for what it's worth. I'm going to get Badger to post a pic here for me so y'all can see an example of an L42 bracket that been around the block a bit.

[Garandrew]

Brian, and guys, thats my problem, keep it, or flip it..I dont want any bubba'd rifles, hopefully it was field level work? Why would a "faker" do it this way?

[RobD]

Is it just me, or are the T R stamps on the receiver ring applied on top of the England import stamp?Look through a loupe to see. The T R stamps should have been applied in 1944 and the England stamp in 1980s, right?

[Garandrew]

Its got the "S" on the right side, and "T" on the reciever's side, this parts original T, I think the T R is good too

[Brian Dick]

I'm convinced it's a nice, original rifle with a nice, original bracket and scope. We know the scope is good because it was serviced several years ago. The reason it's "matched up" is to get a better price upon sale and eliminate the backlash from the unrealistic out there in collectorland. Like the example I gave in my previous post, there are many "expurts" who will pick anything apart based on their or someone else's so called knowledge of lack therof. I don't have the energy to argue with them anymore. It's nice to find these rifles as they left the factory with every number and part matching but it's simply not realistic considering their pushing 70 years of age, the length of time in service and the fact that they ARE military firearms, most issued and used by the MILITARY. God forbid a part is changed or there's a ding or dent in the stock! Boy, could I tell y'all stories! I haven't a clue what you paid for this rifle but I guarantee that if the bracket fits properly, it'll shoot just as well as a matching one. I seem to recall you don't shoot them anyhow. I think it's a shame it was "doctored" as I'd be happy with it with mismatched scope and bracket as long as it was checked for proper fit and adjusted if in need. Whether you keep it or sell it on is up to you. It's also up to you if you sell it on to another unsuspecting buyer whether or not you tell them the truth about it or pass it off as matching. I like honesty because you can't get caught up in it. It is what it is.

[Peter Laidler]

To be honest, and I've said this all along, it just looks to me like it is a genuine No4T rifle and a genuine No32 telescope and bracket. But, alas, not the RIGHT scope for that rifle. In the dim and distant past, someone equally dim has put the scope/bracket onto that rifle. Because that's what people did then!!!!!!!!!!

In fact, it's what real Armourers would do at our field and base workshops. But the difference is that we'd do it PROPERLY. We'd match the bracket to the rifle so that it and the telescope collimated EXACTLY. Then we'd bar out the old numbers so that they'd always be present and stamp new ones just as Brian said.

You've just got to make sure that it is fitted correctly. Keep it but get it checked over, fitted properly and more importantly, marked correctly. There's no need to hide anything.............. We did it regularly

[Brian Dick]

An example of an L42 bracket that been around the block a bit.