Late Production No.4s in India/Pakistan?

[Sht_LE]

Does anyone know the last time No.4s were sent to India or Pakistan? I ask because I am currently looking at a November 1948 dated Faz No.4 Mk.I Serial #PF 56,XXX that appears to have seen Indian service. Given that India gained its independence in 1947 I was trying to figure out when/how it got there. I had wondered if it had perhaps been captured from Pakistani forces, but Pakistan gained its independence in 1947 so the date comes into play again?

As for it having seen Indian service, the action body, bolt, and magazine are all matching original equipment. The forearm is serial numbered to the rifle, but it is Savage. The middle band is also Savage and it and the forearm have been cut for the M9A1 grenade launching sight. The forearm also has the "Ishy" screw (yeah, I now its not exclusive to India). The butt has both a heal and toe repair (pegged) and a SIA roundel. I also notice the front sight guard is Long Branch and it has a No.5 trigger guard.

So any ideas on when how it got to India? Also the rifle has no import or export marks, so when did it arrive in the USA? Any thoughts appreciated.

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[Thunderbox]

Hundreds of thousands of No4s were sold or transferred to Pakistan/India (and other Commonwealth countries) by the Crown Agents into the 1960s, when arms embargoes were imposed due to the Indo-Pakistan wars. India seems to have also acquired Lee Enfields from a variety of other sources, probably from the illicit gun trade dealing in surplus weapons.

[newcastle]

Pakistan was actually making No.4's a the POF factory well into the 1960's -I've seen one with a 1963 date on it. Apparently the tooling from Fazackerly may have been sent out there post 1955. India made the No.1 Mk 3's into the 1970's and maybe the 1980's still in .303,but I don't think anyone has ever said they made No.4s

[Sht_LE]

Thanks Thunderbox
"India seems to have also acquired Lee Enfields from a variety of other sources, probably from the illicit gun trade dealing in surplus weapons."
I did not even think about that. Good thought
and newcastle, (that would not be from Newcastle Brown Ale would it? That stuff is good.) The POF No.4 are very nicely made, I have a 1963 dated POF No.4 Mk.II that looks like it did not see much service and shoots like a house of fire. Still looking for a late date Ishy Mk.3*. 1982 is the latest I have seen with my own eyes, but I thought the dealer wanted way too much for it.

[newcastle]

I would LOVE a POF No.4 Mk2, saw one for sale but the barrel was a sewerpipe.

[Frederick303]

Aim surplus had a number of 1986, 1987 and 1988 dated No1 MK III SMLE rifles of Indian production some years ago. The rifles seemed to be a mix of new parts and recycled parts, best guess from folks that saw them was they were using up spares for police guns. The serial number range followed the No 2 and No2A1 rifle series, not the last known 1970s “w” serial range. Previous to that the latest W marked .303 in the US I have read about was dated 1974. These guns came in during the late 1980s and were imported by Springfield sporters

I seem to recall reading in a book on the partition of India that India sort of cheated on the division of arms, giving Pakistan less then the agreed upon number of rifles. I understand England gave Pakistan a large number of No1 MK III dispersal rifles and other No1 MK III rifles that had never been issued in the 1950s, as by this time they were obsolete. These came back into the USA in the 1990s, imported by century arms.

I have also read in another source is many of the English arms that came in during this period were in fact imported from India, who had captured many of these arms from Pakistan in the 1965 and 1971 wars. No idea which is the case, though I am pretty sure that Century arms did import some arms from Pakistan in the early to mid 1990s. Many of there Centurian line of sporting rifles were made from P14 and M1917 rifles imported from this source. I recall speaking to a dealer about this at the time, lamenting the conversion of P14 and M1917 rifles into sporters. His response was the rifles were in such poor shape that no other use could be made of them but as the source for actions. The DP rifles that were coming in at the same time and sold for something like 30 bucks were really in rough shape. I think the source for this was a New York Dealer by the name of Ellison, but I am working from memory and at times my post 45 year old brain fools me, so take those recollections as just that. I wonder if anyone else has some input on this?