Turkish Peabody Martini in 7.62 X 54 Russian.

[green]

Steyr would have to breech up the barrel for the MH action and thread it but the exterior is stepped like a Mauser barrel.

[TheDoubleD]

To be quite frank with you I can find no reference to any modification of Turkish Martini's or any Martini for that matter that were fit with 7.62 x 54 Russina chamber barrels.

I did find an old article fro Arms and Militaria Collector Vol. 3 No. 3 written by Ray McMahon on the Turkish 7.65 Peabody.

McMahon makes it very clear these rifle's barrel duplicated the profile of the original Martini Peadoby barrels and that bayonets and such from the original rifles would still fit. The barrel was 29.2 inches long hand a 1904 pattern Mauser tangent rear sight graduated to 2000 yards. These barrels were not sleeved

The descriptive information goes on.

The OP said the metal has Turkish marks. I would like to see some pictures of this rifle. Especially the markings.

This rifle is either a very interesting relatively unknown variation or a product of the Bubba Aresenal. I am hoping for the former, but suspect the latter.

Show us some pictures!

FWIW, the Mosin crowd often make this type of conversion when the drift over to Martini's

[william]

See-e-guns in German- you can be rewarded for taking a perfectly good design and absolutely "dogging it to death". would love to see the plans.

[Patrick Chadwick]

See-e-guns in German- you can be rewarded for taking a perfectly good design and absolutely "dogging it to death".

Da habe ich gar nichts verstanden! Could you please explain?

Patrick

[Patrick Chadwick]

Getting back on topic, has anyone out there got shooting/reloading experience with a Peabody Martini?

Patrick

[TheDoubleD]

Patrick,

There is a difference between a Turkish Peabody Martini and Peabody, is that what you mean?

[Patrick Chadwick]

Sorry if my question was not clear. I mean a Turkish Peabody in the Turkish chambering of 11,43x55R, also known (I think) as .45 Peabody Martini. I already load several BP cartridges, including the 11,43x50R Egyptian Remington, and found it no problem to make a trial 11,43x55R with the same setup, but with brass rings inserted to provide the longer base-neck length*. It's probably a way of disguising the fact that I am long past my competitive best, that I don't stick to one rifle but love to try out these curiosities!

So has anyone any experience with these rifles in the 11,43x55R chambering?

Patrick


*I have a standard method of setting the dies as per normal for full calibration, and then inserting one or more brass rings and/or thin steel washers under the die nut to provide precisely known and repeatable back-off for less-than-full calibration, avoid crimping in the seating die etc. Once the cartridge cases have been fire-formed in the rifle, they are only used in that rifle, and only neck sized the abosulte minimum amount to hold the bullet.

[TheDoubleD]

I am not at home right now and don't have access to my books, to look this up. The Turks, Rumanians and Egyptians all had a cartridge that were virtually identical and it derived from the Westley Richards Musket No. 2. And I seem to remember it was listed in the U.S. catlogs as the 45 Peabody or 45 Turkish. I won't be home until late Thursday to look it up.

Good cartridge.

[tinbender]

With reference to the Peabody-Martini converted to 7.65X53, I had one of these rifles several years ago. It was in almost un-used condition since conversion. The dealer I bought it from did not even know what calibre it was. At the time, I didn't either and bought it for $99.00 and took it home to do some research (Before the internet!). I first suspected that it might be in .303 British, 8mm Mauser or 7.65 Turkish. I had a pretty extensive military arms collection at the time and had about 13 different rifles cartridges at my disposal. I tried the first two and then the Turkish round slid right in. A trip to the range confirmed it. It was actually a fun little rifle to shoot. I sold it several years later, still without really knowing a whole lot about it (Still before the internet). It was only much later that it came to light. It recognized who had done the conversion from the markings on the back of the tangent rear sight leaf, but at the time, that was about it. After some research on the web, here is what I have found...

Turkish 7.65mm Peabody-Martini Rifle (M71/74 Apt.)

Already in 1891/1892, Oberst H. v. Lobell mentioned in his annual military publications about changes and advances in the military world , that the available Peabody-Martini rifles according to proposals by Paul Mauser , should be improved by fitting a 7.65mm barrel, in order to require only 1 single cartridge. However, only 20 years later were Paul Mausers ideas executed, which meant that the Turkish conversion program started at a moment that the British one had already been finished for quite some time. From October 1910 till March 1911 (Turkish financial year 1326), the Turkish military purchase office ordered from the Osterreichischen Waffen-Fabrik Gesellschaft in Steyr 150,000 barrels in calibre 7.65mm, 150,000 rear sights Model 1903, 25,000 forends including hand guards Model 1903 for the Transformed Martini-rifle in calibre 7.65mm. These entries can be found in the contract book of OEWG, page 130, numbers 1 to 4.
Delivery time was stated as 18 months as from payment of the 1st instalment. Which means we can reasonably assume that the Government Rifle factory started with the modification of the old Peabody-Martini actions as from 1912.

Description
1. Barrel (similar to 7.65mm rifle M.1903)
Calibre: 7.65mm
Barrel length: 740mm
No. Grooves: 4
Groove depth: 0.125mm
Width of grooves: 4.20mm
Twist: 250mm
Direction of twist: Right
At the muzzle, the new barrels were dimensioned to use the old Peabody-Martini bayonets.

2. Sights and hand guard
(Similar to 7.65mm rifle M.1903), with rear sight graduated from 200 up to 2,000 M.

3. Block
The large loading groove was retained, and the block was slightly shortened, so as to allow the fork-like extractor/ejector, now with insert for extracting the small rimless 7.65mm cartridge, to be positioned unhindered in front of the block.

4. A new forend (maintaining the old fittings) completes the fittings. Length of the converted rifles is 114 cm.

The left side of the receiver of the converted rifles now has, in addition to the markings Providence Tool Cy., the arsenal nomenclature Istanbul in old-Turkish, and the year of conversion 1912 (Turkish financial year 1327).
The Martini action in those days was could still be found everywhere. A conversion of these rifles to a modern, small-calibre cartridge could lengthen its useful time span. OEWG-Steyr found this niche in the market, modified the Martini extractor for use with a rimless cartridge and patented this modification in 1892. It is quite probable that the news, already made public in 1891, that the Turkish empire would convert its 600,000 Peabody-Martini rifles to the calibre of the Mauser M.90 rifles, played quite an important role in this decision.
The operation was very simple. When opening the action, the front of the block pushes on the lever part of the extractor (P), which moves the extractor, and engages the groove of the cartridge case. A further push on the lever takes care of the extraction of the empty case.
This is most certainly not a simple modification, a completely new extractor had to be made. This conversion presumably was too expensive for the Turkish military, and they chose a cheaper variant, modifying the existing extractor with an insert the Austrian construction was not adopted.

Mauser 7.65mm cartridge

OAL: 78mm
Weight: 27.6g
Case length: 53.6mm
Case weight: 11.6g
Bullet length: 30.8mm
Bullet weight: 13.7g
Powder charge: 2.65g
Powder type: Rottweil Bl.88/91
Max. Pressure: 3000 bar
Bullet type: Nickel-plated, steel-jacketed bullet with lead core.
The conversion program would only be completed during WWI, as the pattern room of Royal Ordnance, MOD, in Nottingham has a rifle only converted in 1915 and it is possible that there are rifles with even later conversion dates.

Conclusion

The marriage of the old, but robust Martini system with a modern, state-of-the-art cartridge can be considered as a success. In the 1st Balkan wars, WWI and the conflicts shortly hereafter the rifles was used with complete satisfaction. Although it didnt have the speed of fire of the Mauser rifles, it was most certainly their equal as to precision and reliability. As from 1933, with the general introduction of the 7.9mm Mauser cartridge in the Turkish army, the M.71/74 was taken out of service. There is no record of a new calibre change. Hereby I do thank Wolfgang Seel and Herb Woodend for their help and patience!

Heino Hintermacher

Sources:
Edward A. Hull: Providence tool Co. Military arms, USA. 1978, Santa Rosa printing 531 W. Elva St. Milton, Florida 32570, USA.
Herb Woodend: Catalogue of the Enfield pattern room, Royal Ordnance, MOD, Nottingham, UK.
Oberst Heinrich von Lobell: annual notices about changes and advances in the military, Berlin (editions 1878, 1891, 1892) from the records of the University library Salzburg, Austria.
Wolfgang Seel: Mauser rifles under the Half Moon/Turkish Mausers, Deutsche Waffen Journal, Verlag Schwend GmbH, Schwbisch Hall.
Contract book of the OEWG (1869 1913), records of Steyr-Mannlicher GmbH, Steyr, Upper Austria.

[Richardwv]

The larger receiver ring wasn't an issue since they were purpose built barrels made by Steyr. They just followed the basic contours of the M1903 barrel....but weren't M1903 barrels.

I have heard of, but not seen Russian conversions to 7.62x54 of Turk Peabody-Martinis. Russia captured a fair number of these in their original chamber. During WWI everyone was converting available BP rifles to their standard smokeless rounds and I see no reason to think Russia didn't as well....because they certainly converted Berdan II rifles to 7.62x54. Considering the large number of Berdan II conversions done and the very few that have surfaced in collections, any similar official conversions on a much smaller scale would indeed be rare.

While a fair push for the action, this same design of course was widely converted by the Brits to .303, so in theory it would work. The main variable here is metalurgy and frankly I don't know whether the Providence Tool production steel was as good as the Brit steel of the era. Many if not most of the Turk conversions to 7.65mm had a rather peculiar reinforcement to the frame, so Steyr at least thought it warranted. Detailed pics of a 7.62x54 conversion would be much appreciated.