My new arrival, an early Mk2 target No4

[Thunderbox]

The earliest Mk2 I have on record is PF100412 dated 5/49 (last MkI I have on record is PF97096 dated 4/49), so it looks like Mk2 production began in May 1949. Interesting thing about yours is the s/n, all of the October 1949 s/n's I have recorded so far are in the 140xxx - 141xxx block. Your s/n is usually found in the 1953-55 range (it also falls into the s/n range of what many refer to as the Irish Contract).

I think RJW's rifle is from a "retailed to trade" batch of Mk2s, the same as those in the PF 4xx,xxx range. Look at the way the number is engraved: it is much deeper than the standard Mk2 electro-pencil, and does indeed resemble the deep style on the PF 4xx,xxx rifles. Difficult to say without handling the rifle, but the woodwork and general detail doesn't look like a standard production Mk2.

The Mk1/Mk2 changeover evidently has both a big overlap in numbers and dates, and also shows the number sequences not correlating to the production dates. I imagine the rifles were being built in batches by assigned number "block", and work flow just meant that batches were finished and dated out of planned sequence.

[Peter Laidler]

can you elaborate on the large overlap of numbers and dates TBox as that's intrigued me, especially after the previous comment re changeover points

[tlvaughn]

I think RJW's rifle is from a "retailed to trade" batch of Mk2s, the same as those in the PF 4xx,xxx range. Look at the way the number is engraved: it is much deeper than the standard Mk2 electro-pencil, and does indeed resemble the deep style on the PF 4xx,xxx rifles. Difficult to say without handling the rifle, but the woodwork and general detail doesn't look like a standard production Mk2.

The Mk1/Mk2 changeover evidently has both a big overlap in numbers and dates, and also shows the number sequences not correlating to the production dates. I imagine the rifles were being built in batches by assigned number "block", and work flow just meant that batches were finished and dated out of planned sequence.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...94475969-1.jpg

Like I said, I hate to assume anything when it comes to Enfields. I looked at my spreadsheet again and actually had yours listed, just an oversight when I looked at it this morning. Do you know if the out of sequence s/n's was common are just a few here and there? Savage production is similar in that the first MkI* was around the 12C block yet I have seen various MkI's as high as the 22C block.

[Peter Laidler]

That happened with Bren production too. Generally speaking the Bren out of sequences were due to production line faults or errors being picked up. That meant a gun body with certain type characteristics (say a Mk1 4th intermediate variation) being sent to a rectification bay, (called the hospital bay), rectified, then sent on its way again. Now, a gun with what should be an E prefix serial number came out bearing an H prefix. That's one example. And on close inspection, internally you can see where it appears to have slid in its fixture jig. That's the likely explanation for higher prefixed Mk1's

While this isn't likely on the post war Faz. rifle production line where a body was cheap enough to scrap and they were all pretty much the same anyway except for what we call 'the bleedin obvious'

Production engineers like to start a new number sequence with a new model type. Sterling certainly did as did Enfield.

The change to the simplified Mk2 rifle in late '49 certainly ties in with the 1948 small arms school trials to simplify or find a better method of fore-end fitting

[Thunderbox]

can you elaborate on the large overlap of numbers and dates TBox as that's intrigued me, especially after the previous comment re changeover points

When this was discussed on another forum, someone piped up with a Mk2 that was several thousand below mine. A lot of the rifles recently come out of South Africa are late Mk1s and early Mk2s; there are plenty of others about, so it doesn't look like these are odd exceptions. Of the rifles where I made a note of the date, I've had:

No4 Mk1 PF59781 (6/49), PF70944 (1/49), PF79542 (7/49)

No4 Mk2 PF100897 (IIRC 6/49), PF103899 (6/49), PF121900 (7/49), PF122629 (7/49)

[Peter Laidler]

Ah, yes........, got it now! It looks to me like the serial number changeover point was as TLV says and you agree. Late Mk1's ended at the PF 970xx sort of area and Mk2's started at the PF 100001 era. But no duplication. Thanks for that

[Thunderbox]

Ah, yes........, got it now! It looks to me like the serial number changeover point was as TLV says and you agree. Late Mk1's ended at the PF 970xx sort of area and Mk2's started at the PF 100001 era. But no duplication. Thanks for that

Sorry, my misprint; the rifle I pictured above is of course a Mk2, hence:

No4 Mk1 PF70944 (1/49), PF79542 (7/49)

No4 Mk2 PF59781 (6/49), PF100897 (IIRC 6/49), PF103899 (6/49), PF121900 (7/49), PF122629 (7/49)

Thus there is an overlap of at least 20,000 based on my rifles, and, IIRC, about 30,000 if the earlier reported Mk2s are included (c. PF 50,000)

[tlvaughn]

It looks like the PF series Mk2 production started in May 1949 and ended sometime in 1955 and the MkI production ended in April 1949 (with some exceptions), but does anybody know when the MkI production started? The earliest I have record of is January 1948 - PF2212. Did the production start with PF1?

[Peter Laidler]

I wouldn't mind betting that post-war new production at Faz started in 1948 with PF 00001. But whatever number it did start at will be a convenient round figure. I would suggest at PF-10001. Sterling always started production guns at 10001 so the first buyer thought that they were getting guns from well into the productioin series instead of just post prototypes!

Also, on the basis that the prefixes all signified something, such as VS for Mk5 Sten and LB for Lightweight Bren then I wouldn't mind betting that PF is probably a prefix for Post war Fazakerley. Whatever it stands for, it's agood indicator

Ooops........, line 2: I meant to say PF 0001

[David TS]

Fresh in the door, courtesy of a very nice seller, does anyone know when the Mk2's began production? This seems very early, what with the converted no4 mk1 wood and all. There's zero stamps on the wrist, can anyone ID the maker from the serial lumber PF 318154?
I think it has 4 groove rifling, I'm not sure of the barrel maker yet as I haven't had a look inside. The barrel is stamped ball burnished, my first rifle with that feature, nice to have.

On the underside the trigger guard has had about a one inch extension welded onto it to increase the bearing area, somewhat on the same theory as the L42, does anyone know of 'K&H' as a gunsmith/accurizer? I've never heard of them.

The seller showed me images of the bedding, it has the classic parker hale? type, a small bearing pad under the knox area 1 inch square, and then a 2-3 inch bearing area at the mid band, upper and lower. All very interesting.

Thanks if you know of any on the questions.

(the image manager isn't working, I'll try posting them again soon./ Solved, I switched over to Internet Explorer instead of fire fox)

K&H? Tsk, tsk - how about King & Henry Gunsmiths, Mel Wilson's shop in Masterton - almost on your doorstep

Re numbering, my original '54 Faz is PF 317*** so the numbering is definitely out of sequence