problem with certain garand enbloc clips

[emmagee1917]

Paul , look close at the extractor cut on the cases. See if the AE is "old school " 30-06 and the PPU "new school " .308 specs.
Chris

[PaulN]

Paul , look close at the extractor cut on the cases. See if the AE is "old school " 30-06 and the PPU "new school " .308 specs.
Chris

Chris;

It appears that the PPU .30-06 brass dimensions, around the base, are identical with .308 dimensions.

I confess that your comment caught me unawares so I looked at several references and pretty-much decided that there may have been a slight redimensioning of the .30-06 brass (to the tune of 2 or 3 10-thousandth's of an inch) just above the extractor groove.

The earliest .30-06 dimensional reference that I'm aware that I have is in my copy of Hatcher's Notes and the drawing there does not appear to show what I thought would have been clearly needed dimentions .... it does not seem to give the diameter of the brass case just above the extractor groove ..... though it may be that my ability to read an older style drafting format (I got training on such in the early 1970s) is not up-to-snuff.

- Paul

[.45s r best]

I have recently purchased M-1 clips from Fulton Armory and they have worked flawlessly in my M-1. I am pretty sure they are orginal USGI.

[emmagee1917]

Found it . Look at post 5.
M1 garand CMP HXP Ammuniton clip problems
Chris

[PaulN]

Found it . Look at post 5.
M1 garand CMP HXP Ammuniton clip problems
Chris

Forgive me for being so obtuse but I don't see the relevance.

The issue (if we're both chasing the same thing) is that there ' is/may be ' a variance in the diameter of different manufacturers .30-06 brass cases.

Just this afternoon I received a copy of the Engineering drawing (dwg 6528288; rev K) for the Garand's En Bloc clip from Eric Nicolaus (he put together a book of M1 Garand drawings) but so far I have not been able to put together a workable understanding of the allowable width of a loaded clip (as the .30-06 cartridges are put into the clip its effective width increases).

The (apparent) problem I ran into last week, while firing my Garand on a cousin's ranchland in central Texas, was that the clips (newly purchased Aggressive Engineering ones) jammed if I attempted to load the clip in my Garand IF using Prvi Partizen (PPU) .30-06 150g FMJ ammunition BUT I had NO PROBLEM if using American Eagle (by Federal) M1 Garand ammunition. A simple measurement with a manual micrometer showed the PPU brass cases were ever-so-slightly wider in diameter than the American Eagle cases.

The importer of PPU ammo here in the U.S. (TR&Z USA Trading Company) says their ammunition (the 150g FMJ .30-06) is fully compliant with industry specs and Aggressive Engineering says that their En Bloc clips are made the same as for the military (indeed I saw that AEC is listed on the En Block clip drawing received today).

So we seem to have a conundrum ..... both manufacturers say that the problem isn't theirs.

Is it with my M1 Garand ? Well that might be a possibility but then there is also the matter that trying to fully load an AEC En Bloc clip with PPU ammunition is virtually impossible - that final 8th round just doesn't fit .... the clip is not wide enough at its base.

Looking at the En Bloc clip drawing this afternoon got me to thinking that there is probably (or was some time in the past) a composite drawing that shows the En Bloc clip when loaded with eight .30-06 cartridges.

The drawings in the book Eric publishes, and the drawing received from him this afternoon, are manufacturing drawings, intended to convey to a factory's Engineers what they are to build. What we need is more of a systems-level series of drawings that show how the overall device (in this instance the M1 Garand Rifle) works when all the parts are assembled.

If there is such a drawing(s) I'm not familiar with it. (sigh)

- Paul

[emmagee1917]

1919A4 Machineguns were made originaly in 30-06 . We gave / sold a bunch to Isreal who converted many to 7.62 Nato. Part of the conversion was milling out a bigger slot in the bolt's face to take the Nato spec rim as the 30-06 spec slot was too narrow for reliable feeding.
So what ?
On the back inside of the enblock are left / right vertical ribs that are supposed to fit down into the extractor grooves . If they don't fit the grooves , they will not fit down all the way , jaming on them. If they jam , the back of the enbloc will be bulged out throwing everything out of whack.
Don't know if it's your problem.....all 15,000 of my rounds were GI 30-06 spec and are in USGI clips I've had for over 30 years.....but other people have had problems with this.
Chris

[Sarge1998]

Checking the PPU website you will find 30.06 Springfield listed under Sport & Hunting, they also have 30 (7.62 x 63 mm) Ball, M2 listed under Military. Since this ammunition is listed and marketed two ways what may be occurring is the Sport/Hunting 30.06 Springfield is manufactured using a shell that can be utilized for the (8) different types of bullet weight/type as well as the possibility they use a more commercial powder charge.

The Military 30 (7.62 x 63 mm) Ball, M2 is undoubtedly made by contract, over-runs will be bought up and sold as they occur, I have not seen any PPU M2 Ball ammo, just the previously mentioned Springfield. The agent for the Importer may or may not have been properly informed when he responded to the question, the fact that the 30.06 Springfield will not fit (8) rounds indicates a problem that is not widely reported with any other commercial ammo used in a Garand with en bloc clips.

Possibly some shooters who use commercial ammo not designed as compatible with M2 in their Garands may shed some additional light on this subject. I've never had a problem with PPU and I've used it in semi-auto handguns as well as my AR, Sig 556 (both 556) and 1918A3 ( 30.06 Springfield). With a sufficient supply of surplus M2 I haven't felt the need to use commercial ammo in my Garands, save for a few hundred Hornady Match rounds.

[PaulN]

" .... I have not seen any PPU M2 Ball ammo ....

That is an interesting comment and may well cover the issue that I need to pursue - to understand what is happening when I load PPU (150g FMJ) .30-06 ammunition into my Aggressive Engineering ('AEC') En Bloc clips (and then to try and load that into my Garand).

In May of this year (2011) I had an e-mail exchange with TR&Z USA Trading (the importers of PPU ammunition into the U.S.) in which they said that their 150g FMJ .30-06 ammunition was M2 Ball compliant.

Having fired my Garand a couple of weeks ago on my cousin's ranch in central Texas I am pleased to report that the actual process of shooting the rifle with both the American Eagle (a Federal brand) and the PPU ammunition went perfectly (once I reduced the loading of the PPU ammunition in the En Bloc clip from 8 rounds down to 7). It would appear that the gas pressure curve of both ammunitions is sufficiently close to that produced by GI ammunition so as to work without-a-hitch in the Garand's mechanism.

I think that it may be possible for us to still question, however, how precisely the PPU's brass case dimensions follow that of GI issue ammunition (not forgetting that the American Eagle ammunition loaded all 8 rounds in the En Bloc clip flawlessly).

It seems to me that I need to make a dedicated effort to understand both the brass case dimensions of GI .30-06 ammunition and also to continue the work to understand the allowable dimensional limits of a (fully) loaded En Bloc clip.

From a strictly dollars-and-cents standpoint becoming comfortable using PPU ammunition in my Garand is strongly indicated as it is several dollars less expensive (per box of 20 cartridges) than the American Eagle ammunition.

- Paul

[PaulN]

Checking the PPU website you will find 30.06 Springfield listed under Sport & Hunting, they also have 30 (7.62 x 63 mm) Ball, M2 listed under Military. Since this ammunition is listed and marketed two ways what may be occurring is the Sport/Hunting 30.06 Springfield is manufactured using a shell that can be utilized for the (8) different types of bullet weight/type as well as the possibility they use a more commercial powder charge.

The Military 30 (7.62 x 63 mm) Ball, M2 is undoubtedly made by contract, over-runs will be bought up and sold as they occur, I have not seen any PPU M2 Ball ammo, just the previously mentioned Springfield. The agent for the Importer may or may not have been properly informed when he responded to the question, the fact that the 30.06 Springfield will not fit (8) rounds indicates a problem that is not widely reported with any other commercial ammo used in a Garand with en bloc clips.

Possibly some shooters who use commercial ammo not designed as compatible with M2 in their Garands may shed some additional light on this subject. I've never had a problem with PPU and I've used it in semi-auto handguns as well as my AR, Sig 556 (both 556) and 1918A3 ( 30.06 Springfield). With a sufficient supply of surplus M2 I haven't felt the need to use commercial ammo in my Garands, save for a few hundred Hornady Match rounds.

Although the PPU Web site in Serbia shows both military & commercial FMJ .30-06 listings the TR&Z USA Trading Company (the U.S.A. importers of PPU ammunition) only list a single FMJ .30-06 cartridge (their TRZ Load No. 3.4).

When I corresponded with TR&Z (06 May 2011) I was careful to denote that I was asking about their Load No. 3.4.

In reply Tom Vujovic, with TR&Z, said "We make this round as an M2 ball specially produced for M1 rifles."

As best I can tell this means that TR&Z confirms that the 150g FMJ .30-06 PPU ammunition being sold in the U.S. is suitable for use in M1 Garands.

- Paul

[Sarge1998]

Maybe one of the experienced reloaders can reply if 50 meters a second is a powder that is too fast for an M1? PPU lists the 150 grain FMJ at 885 meters per second, American Eagle M1 ammo is listed as 2740 fps. I'm not really good at math but converting feet to meter = 835.152 for the American Eagle, which is loaded for the M1. PPU commercial which we are talking about at 885 mps is 164 fps faster than recommended M1 load.