Reloading metallic cartridges

[villiers]

Have just started my BP career and have only just received my BP licence. I´ve got cases for my Mauser `71 and the Werder Cavalry carbine (11.15x60 & and 11.5x35) and use .446, 264 grain lead bullets for both.

Filling the cases with powder for the Werder Carbine is a problem as the amount has to be very precise, combined with the cardboard checks and the grease behind the bullet. I haven´t been able to load according to the published COAL, as the back of the case then extends preventing the trapdoor from coming up. So I have to use less powder than recommended.Filling the case with only a few grains more increases the COAL and it then protrudes and cannot be entirely chambered.

I´ve ordered a BP powder measure. Hope I´m not doing anything wrong.

The Werder is definitely more fun to shoot. Both shoot accurately, but both have sights that cannot be brought down nearly enough for 100 metres (have to tack another target below the one I hit).

Any better ideas on loading the metallic cases?

Patrick

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[Patrick Chadwick]

Any better ideas on loading the metallic cases?

Yes, but you'll have to wait for a day or two so that I can make some pics. Basically, reloading for BPCRs is a doddle. That sweeping statement requires some justification, so hey ho, it's off to the reloading station a.k.a. cellar to establish some proof.


Patrick

[villiers]

Thanks (again) Patrick. Have to wait for the powder dispenser anyway. Wonder why my Werder´s chambered shorter than spec?

[Patrick Chadwick]

Wonder why my Werder´s chambered shorter than spec?

If you could post the measurements, it might be possible to offer an explanation!

Patrick

[Richardwv]

I doubt your chamber is shorter than spec, but I'd bet that the capacity of the case you are using is less than original. In my carbine I use Norma 7.62x54 cases cut to length and expanded to size...then FLS in the proper die. The case doesn't hold as much as the original and like you, I'm using my supply of .446 for both. However, my .446 bullets have a longer bearing surface than the original Werndl bullet, meaning that it must be seated deeper to allow it to chamber without hitting the rifling. Put the smaller capacity case together with a bullet that needs to be seated a tad deeper than original and you have a noticable lower powder capacity. That said, this cartridge is really under powered for anything other than punching paper.....or maybe a varmint up real close. As such, I load the maximum powder I can with light compression and still get the cartridge to chamber and go on my merry way. I don't shoot it enough to warrant getting a mold for a period correct bullet, which would allow a longer OAL and more powder capacity. As is it punches paper just fine.

[gew8805]

Did the Werder cartridge use a compressed powder load? Maybe that's the answer?

[villiers]

No ... the problem was that I´d been using a bullet that was too stubby. A longer, more elongated bullet entered as far as the rifling and the COAL is now the standard 50mm. AND .. I´ve now got a BP powder dispenser and can reproduce an exact load that allows the bullet to be seated to the correct depth every time. I got every round within a 10 inch square at 50 metres today at the range (which is a great improvement) but have to aim at a target hung 10 inches below it. So will now take the short Werder over to the 100 metre range. If the sights are then still much too high, I´ll experiment with a lower powder charge and fill up the case with semolina. I like the Werder much more than the Mauser 71 although it´s such a nice looking carbine ... But still ... think it´s for the chop.

PS

Don´t forget to wear a poppy

[gunner]

Wait for the BP powder dispenser, it is a completely different way to work with that thing. And you have a lot of work to do to find the right load datas for your Werder, especially for yours, the bullet to buy or to cast, and how to shoot. I mean to clean after every single shot with soap water or any other way. Have luck to find it, it is fun!

[Patrick Chadwick]

But still ... think it´s for the chop.

That sounds ominous Patrick! Do you mean that you are going to carve up that antique!!!!! Surely not. If you do want to bin it, well I have a very nice bin, so please drop me a private line before you do something irreversible!

Patrick

P.S: I wanted to write an illustrated article on BPCR reloading, but the digital camera is dying (the pictures are rapidly becoming grainier and grainer). BTW, does anyone know what could be causing this?

[Patrick Chadwick]

Patrick, here is an extract from the lengthy thread on refurbishing an Argentine Rolling Block. I suggest you look this up and read through from about page 13 onwards, as it tells you everything you need to know to make a plausible first load for your Werder carbine.

.....First of all, here is a view of the equipment being used for the “desktop” part of this activity (i.e. not including the reloading press and dies). I am using an un-lubricated bullet for this, for illustration purposes.



The powder is Swiss No. 4 (1.5fg). No. 3 (2fg) would also be OK, but No. 2 (3fg) is a bit too fast for the long barrel of a military Rolling Block. It may produce too much pressure too early, thus unnecessarily straining the action.



The grains look remarkably like model coal as used on HO model railroads. This is because they are indeed given a final coat of graphite during manufacture, to prevent electrostatic charge building up on the powder - a precaution that has been taken by powder manufacturers since way back in the 19th century.

How are we going to the get right quantity of powder into the case?

Well, you can buy a commercial powder dispenser, but they perform poorly with such large grains. You can, with a bit of practice, get loads with a spread of 0.4 grains by using the following simple devices from the “pack-rat” school of engineering.

This is a measure for 60.5 grains of Swiss No. 2.



And this is a measure for 67.4 grains of No. 2.



These powder measures are actually made from old cases, with a brass wire soldered on as a handle. The 60.5 measure is a 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser case, and the 67.4 measure is an 8x57IS case. So a few minutes pack-ratting at the range will provide you with a wide spectrum of potential powder measures! ....

Please refer to the original thread for the complete story.

For the Werder carbine case, you will not need any filler, but you will need a grease wad beneath the bullet.
1) Establish the seating depth for maximum COAL with the bullet of your choice (I suggest about 320-340 gns)
2) Reduce that by about 1mm, to make sure that the bullet is still clear of the lands in a fouled bore.
3) Reduce by another 3mm to allow for about 0.25cc of grease and an overpowder wad.
4) Establish the quantity of powder that fills the case to this reduced level.
5) Set your powder measure accordingly, and pour a load into a primed case.
6) Tap the case sharply on the bench, two or three times, to shake down the powder. Hold your finger over the end of the case while doing this!
7) Set the wad. One wad if you are using beer mats. Two if you are using milk cartons.
8) Dispense 0.25cc of grease from the syringe into the case.
9) Set the bullet to the established depth. It is best if the test cartridge is made up without being resized, so that the bullet is a sliding fit. That way, you can feel if the bullet is sitting on the grease. As the bullet is itself greased (in the grooves) there really is no point in having a card wad between the grease wad and the bullet, as all it is going to do is stick to the base of the bullet and, maybe, upset its flight as it emerges from the muzzle.

The first round of cartridges will fire-form the cases to fit your rifle. Do not expect great accuracy from them. Repeat the loading sequence above, adjusting the powder/grease quantites to suit the slightly expanded case. The ideal situation is a bullet that is a firm finger-thumb push fit into a cartridge case that is only neck-sized, if even that, sitting on a powder quantity that is firm (not rattling around) but not compressed. If you want to reduce the load a bit, increase the grease to compensate. Avoid filler, it has a scouring effect.


Patrick