8mm x57 Reloading Info w/ 185gr PSPCL Bullets

[concretus]

Hello,
I got a hold of some Remington 185gr PSPCL bullets and I wanted to try them in my 1938 J P Saur RC. I was going to try Varget, IMR-4064 and IMR-4350. Does anybody have a recipe for it and have you had any luck as far as accuracy with them. Thanks

Information

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[rugersworld]

I put together a load with varget and 185 PSPCL a while back for a czech brno 98-22. The load put 3 rounds under an inch @ 100yds with a 4x post recticle scope at about 2700fps in the 28 or 29 inch barrel. The bullet was seated almost at the lands. The down side is that it was 1.5gr over a max charge! I think it was 48.5gr or 49.5gr of varget. I do not remember if the data was for the 185gr or a 180gr bullet. I found it on the net and worked up to that load. My rifle likes near max loads. I now shoot varget with the 200gr nosler match bullet with a load slightly less than max. Shoots same group size. Never tried IMR4064. IMR4350 is a bit slow for the cartridge I think. I have tried other powders in the varget and faster range, but they did not produce the best results. My point is that I think varget works very well for the 7.92x57mm mauser. As always, reduce published loads and work up for your rifle.

[mtbikerwvu]

I was not impressed with Varget for the 8mm Mauser. I loaded some 150 grain Hornady flat based bullets and I do not know if it was the powder or the bullet and maybe it was a combo of both that produced the poor accuracy. The 150 grain bullets were all I could find at the time and I think they were too light. They seemed awfully stubby and I think the Mausers like a near 200 grain loading for good accuracy.

---------- Post added at 05:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:14 PM ----------

My Mauser loves Turk surplus and will put it into 2 inches at 100 yards with open sights. My next batch of reloads will be as close a duplicate of that load as I can find.

[Patrick Chadwick]

They seemed awfully stubby and I think the Mausers like a near 200 grain loading for good accuracy.

It's not the weight itself that helps, it's the length!
If you can check the CIP dimensions for the 8x57IS you will find that the transition cone on 8MM Mausers is so long it almost amounts to a freebore section. Short bullets, especially boattails, are a bad choice for this reason.

Although someone may now immediately write in to say that their Mauser performs excellently with lighweight boattails, the general rule for Mauser military rifles is that they were often designed in the first instance for long, round-nose bullets, and later changed to "spitzer" type bullets. But never designed for HPBTs.

Which is is why

My Mauser loves Turk surplus and will put it into 2 inches at 100 yards with open sights.

and

My next batch of reloads will be as close a duplicate of that load as I can find.

is a sensible way to go.


Patrick

[vintage hunter]

If these old mausers were never designed for nor shoot well with HPBT bullets why did nations like Germany, Sweden, Argentina and most of those using the 7x57mm choose to drop the old RN design in favor of the spitzer BT design? And BTW, theres a very good chance the Turk ammo mtbikerwvu has is loaded with a short 154gr FB bullet.

[Patrick Chadwick]

If these old mausers were never designed for nor shoot well with HPBT bullets

That is not what I wrote. I am very cautious about words like "never". I wrote "never designed for HPBTs", which may have been a trifle daring, but probably correct for rifles designed before WWI. I certainly did not write "never designed for nor shoot well with...". If you have a near-mint 1909 Argentine or 1908 Brazilian, then you are fortunate, and will get better results than I could with, for example, an 1891 Argentine (gift, regarded as useless) or 1908 Brazilean (offered as wallhanger) or Gew1891 (gift, regarded as useless). But I have made a speciality of shooting ancient rifles, so maybe my experience has just been a statistical freak.

I posited a "general rule" that has helped me to get several rifles regarded as hopeless cases into usable shooting condition again. As to the throat dimensions of military Mausers, please refer to the published CIP data, and remember that old, well-used service rifles are usually looser in their dimensions than the CIP figures indicate. You might also find it interesting to look at P.55 (in the 3rd Edition) of "Mauser Bolt Rifles" by Ludwig Olson.

And what is "shooting well". Accuracy on target or low wind drift and drop? They are not automatically bound together. The boat tail improves external ballistics, but the lowest wind drift and drop will be of little use if the bullet has been engraved on the skew in the throat - a problem of internal ballistics. And a boat tail allows far more blow-by as the bullet leaves the case neck than a flat base (round-nose or spitzer) and provides a poorer guidance to lead the bullet into the throat. Since the cartridge has some play in the chamber, it will anyway be lying on the bottom of the chamber space, so any freebore effect is going to encourage such skewing.

Furthermore, please do not overlook the fact that many of our old service rifles have chambers and throats that were generous to start off with, and now have a century or so of wear. The forums are full of discussions and recommendations on reloading with bullets that are often thicker than the standard ammo. Why, if not to improve the fit?


Patrick

---------- Post added at 01:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:24 AM ----------

why did nations like Germany, Sweden, Argentina and most of those using the 7x57mm choose to drop the old RN design in favor of the spitzer BT design?

I believe the reason was to achieve increased muzzle velocity with lighter bullets, i.e. more energy on target and more cartridges carried per infantryman. A desirable end from the military viewpoint. There was a kind of "velocity race" pre-WWI. I doubt it all had much effect on accuracy.

[mtbikerwvu]

I found, the other day a box of OLD Herters 175 grain round nose bullets for my 7mm 1908 Brazilian. I think they will make the old girl sing! She does not like the 140 BTs that I load in the 7mm Mag. @ Vintage Hunter now you have me curious as to the weight of the Turk ball ammo, I do know they are a full quarter inch longer with a flat base compared to the Remington 150s. I know the K98k of mine sure likes it and it seems fairly clean.

[vintage hunter]

You mean Hornady 150's, right? And yes, thats the approx. lenght difference between the two. I bought 1000 rds of it around 2001 and IIRC it sold for somewhere around $ 4.00 per 70 rd bandoleer back then. Down to less than 400 rds now, would be nice to come across more of it reasonaly priced.

BTW, you should give IMR 4064 and/or IMR 4350 a try, 4064 is my powder of choice with the Hornady 150's/ Nosler 180 Ballistic Tips and 4350 with Sierra 175gr Pro Hunters. I use these loads in a well worn, bubba'd M1924 Mauser for shooting deer and and hogs.

[Patrick Chadwick]

I found, the other day a box of OLD Herters 175 grain round nose bullets for my 7mm 1908 Brazilian. I think they will make the old girl sing! She does not like the 140 BTs

Vintage Hunter now you have me curious as to the weight of the Turk ball ammo, I do know they are a full quarter inch longer with a flat base compared to the Remington 150s.

Like I wrote, just a general rule that helps with a lot of old military bangers, not a digital always/never!

[mtbikerwvu]

Yes, I meant Hornady but I have both 150 Rems and Hornadys and I will try the IMR 4064 as I love it for my 06 with 150s. I think flat base bullets is the way I am gonna go from here on out. It sure seems to make sense.

---------- Post added at 06:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:53 AM ----------

I did like the whole Varget idea of a do all powder but I never was overly impressed and I used a ton of it. .223/.308/8mm Mauser, I would say what I liked the most about Varget is it was very clean in the AR platform and in the Hakim.