New 1905 Ross, markings question

[Homer2]

I got this rifle yesterday, after stalking it for a month and negotiating for a good price. I have some questions on the unit markings. It is a US Property marked MkII. It has a * above the II, but has a 3 in front of the *. Does that mean it is a ***? Serial number is 784V/1907, correct? It has a lot of dates marked out. Why did they do this? Also has a crossed out G.G.B.G. or something like that over a 37. What's that? Underside of the bolt handle has a 12. Also has a curved lower handguard. I think some of those are more flat later on. Bore is good to excellent. Headspace is good, and I can't wait to shoot it. Feels good, and the price was good. Any information and help is appreciated!

Information

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[boltaction]

That is indeed a 1905 Mk II***, so marked with the 3*. Serial number is 784 V (or perhaps Y), rifle manufactured in 1907. These were the units which were sold en masse to the US, and thus have both US and Canadian unit markings. Before WWI, rifles were issued to a unit, and the unit marking and rifle number and usually the date were stamped on the right side of the buttstock. When a rifle was reissued to a different unit, the previous marks were "crossed through" with a horizontal line stamp, and new stamping were put on. I have some of the earlier Mk II variants which have many unit markings on them.

GGBG is most likely the Governor General's Body Guard, which I believe later became known as the Governor General's Foot Guard. The rifle was then issued to other units as indicated by the other stamps on it, before being sold to the US. The initials on the topwood are one of the previous owners' initials............

Nice rifle, appears un-messed with which is nice.

Cheers

Ed

[smellie]

That is definitely a "Y" in the serial number.

"12" under the bolt will be an assembly number.

The 20,000 rifles sold to the US were the results of picking-over existing rifles in service with the Canadian Militia.The US got the good ones and then shot them very little, if at all and, today, they form the only existing pool of really-decent 1905 Ross Rifles; the ones kept here were worked to death, shot to death and sold for junk..... and most of them look it. You have a LOVELY specimen!

The 1905 Ross action was tested at 125,000 PSI pressure, very nearly 3 times the working pressure of the .303" round. The Locking surfaces are 44% greater than a Mauser 98 and the lugs themselves are much deeper. There are NO safety concerns with this model of rifle. Some Commercial 1905 Ross Rifles were chambered for the .35 Winchester and for the .375 Axite, neither of which is to be sneezed at.

You should have a really accurate rifle, one of the very best. Those fully-adjustable rear sights will help you to keep up with anything else on the range, perhaps make a few heads turn.

Hope this helps.
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[Homer2]

Thanks! I shot it this week and it works like a dream. Bore is really nice, and it doesn't seem to have an enlarged chamber like others do. I just tested it with Paki ammo, so i don't have a real idea of accuracy, but the rounds that didn't have a delay hit dead on and close. I couldnt be happier and am looking for a nice bayo and Kerr sling for it. If a sight hood comes my way, i may try it, but not too worried about that.

I looked up some history on the GGBG and it's very interesting. I'll take good care of this one.

[buffdog]

The cancelled markings (the crossed out ones) are not date markings but rather Unit and rack number markings. As the 1910 Ross Mark III was being issued, these rifles were passed down to other Units for their use, and the receiving unit cancelled the previous number, and placed their own Unit number, and the number of the rifle's position in the rifle rack, (or the number as received and recorded as being on strength for that Unit.)

Camp Valcartier, Quebec, was built in 6 weeks, and had the longest (widest) rifle range in the World, over a mile wide. About 35,000 men were arriving at Valcartier, most of them from different regiments, and while they brought their kit with them, most of the arrivals did not bring rifles. Thus there was a great need for rifles to train these men. This was solved by taking the rifles from Armouries that were within close distance of Valcartier and shipping them to Valcartier for training purposes.

I would say from the position and style of markings, the GGBG marking was originally one of these rifles that was taken from the GGBG Armouries.

Sam Hughes, the Minister of Defence stated that Canada was not going to send Regiments but rather Battalions. So Battalions of approximately 1000 men were formed by combining similar men from various Regiments---for example, men from four or five Cavalry Regiments were formed into a Battalion, and men from Infantry Regiments formed into another Battalion. The First Contingent of the Canadian Expeditionary Force had Battalions, numbered 1 to 17 aboard.

Your rifle has several Battalion markings on it. The top number will be the Battalion Number, and the bottom number under the line is the Rifle rack number. Thus GGBG over 37 is Rifle number 37 of the Governor Generals Body Guards. 51 over 538 is the 51st Battalion, rifle number 538, etc.

It would appear that the 1905 Ross Military Mark II rifles had a varied career at Valcartier. While some of them we see have only the markings of the original First Contingent Battalions, ( 1-17 ), others have numbers all over them, including the left side.

When the USA declared war in 1917, New York State wanted 20,000 Ross Rifles to train their troops. The Federal Government grabbed these rifles and then generously let New York State have 10,000 of them back. The Feds also grabbed a lot of the Mosin Nagant rifles that were on hand and were not going to be shipped to Russia because of the Russian Revolution. These were actually property of the British, who had paid for them but refused to ship them to Russia. These Ross and Mosin Nagant rifles were primarily used to teach Drill to soldiers, rather than shooting.

The Americans were very short of Springfield rifles, and used the British Pattern 14 rifle as a basis for the Model 1917 Enfield. More Enfields went overseas with the AEF than Springfields.
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