Fake British No4 MK1 cruciform Bayonet?

[Aragorn243]

Peter,

It isn't LX it's 38 K under an "umbrella" or possibly 38TK. I've looked around for it but haven't found it. It does indeed look like a manufacturers logo. The "T" also resembles the government acceptance mark but doubt that is what it is with the 38 and K under it.

I don't think there is steel cast scabbing on it, that's black paint. It dos show evidence of being "ground" as there are parallel marks. I don't own a micrometer so can't help there.

The designation looks engraved but the logo looks stamped.

[HOOKED ON HISTORY]

Great story although I can only relate to the having to rationalize a purchase to myself. The spouse to convince is a steep hill to climb. Glad it payed off.

[Aragorn243]

I've been in contact with a few experts on these bayonets including Graham Priest, the author of the book, and all have stated that it is definitely a real cruciform bayonet. They are not well known and are likely more rare than the Singer marked bayonets. This is one of the original 75,000 Singer bayonets that was reworked in the 50's with the old markings removed. Graham did tell me that since he wrote the book in 2003 he's come across a dozen more of them. He also mentioned that the standard spike bayonets have also been reworked and remarked and are considered rare if found with the new markings. The emblem if I understand him right is the Enfield's "viewers code". Ralph Cobb from worldbayonets.com says the mark includes the broad arrow acceptance mark. He also explains that a viewers code is what we in the US would call an inspector's mark.

[LesterH]

I do not understand why these bayonets were reworked in the 1950's. The No9 bayonet was being made in UK up to about 1954 and was in plentyful supply. No need to rework a worthless spike bayonet!
From my own enquiries. RSAF Enfield and Singer were the manufacturers of the No4 Cruiciform bayonet. Any other maker or reworker I would not touch with a barge pole! Why pay hundreds of pounds for a remachined spike bayonet worth about £10 with a scabbard?
Any one who has reworked a round spike bayonet into a cruciform and then tries to sell it on for more than £10 is attempting to defraud a customer. We see quite a few of these fake cruiciform bayonets in the UK Militaria markets. RSAF inspection stampings are usually ED, F,S,B or (P) depending on the factory or subcontractor.

[Aragorn243]

Lester,

This isn't a reworked round spike bayonet into a cruciform, it is a SINGER cruciform bayonet reworked and remarked. Dimensions on this bayonet are correct for a cruciform, it is an original cruciform. I have no idea why they would decide to rework them but someone did. Possibly because they had old stocks that were dirty/damaged/rusty and they decided to rework them for export rather than toss them out.

As for the marking, I was just taking photos of some of my other bayonets and discovered my No9 Enfield bayonet has the same type mark only it is 98(broad arrow)C so it is evidently a correct Enfield inspectors mark.

[old-smithy]

These are real bayonets and very scarce. there are a lot of weird reworks out there, I have a dual seam 1907 scabbard that was reworked by Australia for Korena issue with both the locket and chape being phosphated and then put back with the original dual seam leather, since the parts are differnet this has been carfully done not to mix up the parts. Why when the double stithcd was out of service in the mid 20's ? I also have 1888 scabbards made in 1942 39 years after trhey were replaced with the 1903 and 1907 bayonets.

[LesterH]

India made a short version of the SMLE 1907 bayonet. Usually one of their railway factories and I have seen the 1888 scabbards on them.

Aragorn243. I have several N09 bayonets put away and I will make a detailed examination of them for stampings. It is thought some of the Poole RSAF machinery was sold on to BSA and other subcontrators. Might be some unfamiliar stampings to discuss.

On my Poole No9 bayonet (P)1949. Inspectors stamping is GS B,

On my Enfield 1954 No9. Inspectors stamping is ED over 137 Crows foot ( Pussers arrow shape).

No additional stampings on the South African No9 (Uzi bayonet blade).

Hope this is of help. Kind regards, Lester

[Peter Laidler]

To answer the question of whether it has been refurbished or rebuilt at a workshop or not, we just need a simple answer to a simple question.
Have the original marks been machined off and hese new marks re-engraved? A simple check with a micrometer will answer yes or no!
If yes, then it's simply been refurbished. Although why anyone would even dream of machining off and re-engraving the same marking on is a more difficult question to answer.
Simple metallurgy will tell whether the steel spec is what it should be. Those two cheap and simple tests will be all that's needed

[nzl1a1collector]

Now I know nothing about No. 4 bayonets but what I can tel you is the making 38|K (Broadarrow with '38' under one leg and 'K' under the other) is commonly found on non ordnance factory accessories relating to L1A1 production (1957 onwards). It is some form of inspection or acceptance marking. I would love to really know what they mean but I have seen them on IWS mounts and Magazines off the top of my head.

Other combinations seen:
8|K

3|N

26|GE

34|E

32|GE

I would love to get confirmation on what these markings actually mean, if anyone knows.

[Peter Laidler]

Good idea KtK but what we want to know is a simple answer to a simple question. Has that bayonet been skimmed off and remarked?

Those codes beneath the WD arrow are inspection markings that come after the 'stage-inspection' markings that follow the item through its various processes in the factory