Fake British No4 MK1 cruciform Bayonet?

[Aragorn243]

I thought I was doing good. Found a No 4 one piece bayonet at the flea market, one I had been missing, and later found a No 4 cruciform but bringing it home and checking it out not feeling so confident.

I compared the two at the flea market and the blade end looked great, no way it could have been formed out of an MKII. It was also marked No4 MKI.

On comparing to known examples, the marking is in the wrong place and it is missing any reference to Singer, something I did not know at the time.

I don't have a ton of money tied up in it but enough to not make me happy.

Enclosed are photos of the two side by side with the last photo being the top down view of the spike end.

In this photo I can see no evidence the MKI was made from MKII:



Full bayonet:



Side by side comparison:



Side by side close up of spike tip:



Side by side close up of spike tip from top:



So is it fake or simply a different style marking?

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Aragorn243]

Follow up: Investigating at Old Smithy's website (great by the way), it appears to be a reworked bayonet from the 50's and remarked.

[LesterH]

I think you have a fake cruciform. I have two Singer Bayonets.

#1 an ordinary Spike bayonet. NO Stampings on muzzle ring at all ( Would expect to see No4 MKII). Stamping on release button is N67= Singer. Paid £10 last year.

#2 is a 1942 Cruciform . Actual length of the cruiciform ( not blade length)= 71/2" or 19cms exactlly. Weight with out scabbard is 8OZ/ 220grms exactly.
The stamping in very small capitals on the locking button is SM/42 (SM over 42).Cost me £100 a few years ago.

Just for interest, the rarest Cruciform No4 MKI bayonet is the trials version made by RSAF at Enfield Lock in the 1930s. Sadly I don't know the stampings.Less than 20,000 were made. I was shown one by Terry Abrams the gunsmith, who has one with his experimental No4 rifle with a mag cut off!

Kind regards, Lester

[Aragorn243]

Lester,

I would have agreed with you prior to checking Old Smithys website. I went there to check his fakes to compare it and mine wasn't even close to any of them. Went back a second time after I posted the first post here and looked at his real ones. The second bayonet he has shown is what I have. He has four photos of it, the markings match exactly and while his looks brand new, mine has some paint on it is spots.

It says there and I quote from his page:

"No4 MkI reworked and renumber with Arabic rather than Roman numerals. This shows it to be a50's rework of an obsolete bayonet. This is reported in Graham Priests Spirit of the Pike, and is one of only 7 known at the moment. The original marks have been ground off and new ones added."

My bayonet is not short, it is full length and could not have been made from a MKII, the tip is shaped correctly, it is not narrow. The quality of the grooves is good, and it has the dimple on the elbow which is only present in a cruciform because of the way they were made. I learned all this last evening trying to verify it or confirm it as fake.

Now that doesn't mean this can't still be a fake, I'm hoping Old Smithy will weigh in on this as he has the source material to verify it.

I understand the odds of me walking into a US flea market and picking up a British Bayonet which only has 7 known examples for $65 is INCREDIBLY high. It did however come in an unissued, unmarked scabbard with an unissued canvas frog dated 1955 which would fit for a 50's rework.

So at this point, this has to be an original reworked singer bayonet remarked in 1955 or it is an extremely well made reproduction of a little known bayonet that hits all the check points for being legit.. Odds are pretty low for either one but as Sherlock Holmes once said:

"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"

I believe I have comfortably removed that this bayonet was made from a No4 MKII. It is only speculation on my part that someone making a reproduction would have reproduced the known examples rather than one with markings only a few would recognize. I don't known when the book "Spirit of the Pike" was written or if several thousand of these turned up after its printing when they started selling them surplus. But then again, if it is a rarer example, the faker could perhaps get more out of it, justifying the extra work involved to make it "correct".

[HOOKED ON HISTORY]

I for one am hoping it was a needle in a hay stack find. Then you not only have a rare bayonet but an excellent story as to how you found it. Good Eye!
Nothing at flea markets here but chickens and chinese t-shirts.

[Aragorn243]

I have an excellent story on how I found it that involves a long morning of terrible yard sales, little cash, the wife, her stash, a Swiss K11, a canvas bag for a No 4 MKI rifle, "Standard Catalog of Military Firearms 5th Edition" and a trip to the King of Prussia Mall to get a Mother of the Bride dress but before I embarrass myself with that, let's see what Old Smithy says about it.

[HOOKED ON HISTORY]

Nothing ventured nothing gained. Sounds like you earned it even if it turns out to be a mesuem piece.

[Aragorn243]

Old Smithy confirmed over a PM that it's a good one. Didn't say if they are still rare or not, just that not many know about the re-worked ones.

So the story:

I gave up on yard sales about two years ago. They simply weren't worth the effort anymore because most people started having them on Fridays, and now even some on Thursdays. I work for a living so those two days are out. By Saturday, the good stuff is gone. So I'm sitting at the computer doing nothing when my wife suggests we head out. I figure it would be more exercise than I'm getting at home so why not. Went to two different community sales, I found not one single item of actual military goodies and aside from a hammock stand, nothing of interest.

We happened to pass by one of the outdoor antique/flea markets and saw it was extravaganza weekend and opted to go in. Second table had bayonets so I was happy. Very expensive bayonets but I at least got to see what they looked and felt like. Was finding a few more here and there but my thoughts were geared toward the "Gun Guy". I'll call him that because I don't know what else to call him. He usually has a dozen or so beat up old rifles and I was kind of hoping for a cheap Carcano.

Got to the gun guy and low and behold, a Carcano and it was in one piece, hadn't been butchered up but the stock had been varnished and the numbers didn't match and it had a cracked hand guard. I just put it down and four guns away was a K11. I'm like Whooaaaaaaaah, picked it up, looked at it, looked at the price and thought crud, $395.00. I have fallen in love with my K31 I got a few months ago and had been thinking the K11 would be a nice bookend for it. My local gun auction from hell has listed one in May's auction and they've been getting the $395 or more for them there. The gun guy notices my interest, comes over and says he'll knock $100.00 off the price. Again, inside I'm going Whooaaaaaaaaaah but my wife is standing there saying "You don't NEED any more guns" and I'm honestly thinking I shouldn't as I've bought several already this year.

So I reluctently put the gun down and turn away from the stand. Right there are about a thousand bayonets, (slight exageration) but I said that to my wife and why didn't she tell me they were there. Looked around, didn't see much that I didn't already have one of already but spotted a spike bayonet in a pile toward the back. Checked it out, it was the all one piece spike which I didn't have so asked how much? $10.00.........deal. I was happy, got a bayonet. Not a rare one, but still a bayonet.

Walked around the rest of the flea market with my wife trailing along behind. She comes up to me and says "If you really want that rifle, I'll let you get it IF you take me to King of Prussia to buy a dress AND you don't fuss about the price. MAJOR dilemma here. Rifle has value, can be resold, dress, not so much. "How much are the dresses" I asked. "Oh one I looked at was $170.00". No, no rifle is worth that kind of aggravation. So we keep walking.

Found a few more military items but nothing interesting. In the last row I spot more milsurps, mostly Arisaka's. So I look at a few of them, talk to the guy about them and just chit chat a bit. I spot a few bayonets in a case at the other end of his stand and he has the cruciform half out of it's scabbard to show what it is. I turn to my wife and say, "There it is, the last one I need". She isn't real impressed but came over and I explained about what I thought were the four main types of spike bayonets.

He had $95 on it and I was still in K11 mode so I wasn't really thinking of buying it but asked if I could see it and if he could explain the differences between a real one and a fake one. He said sure, started explaining about the tip, etc and I recalled I had one in my pocket so we just compared the two and it was obvious his was the real deal, at least to me. While we are talking another Whooaaaaaaaaaaaah moment as there is a canvas No4 MKI bag laying on the table, amazed that I missed it I asked if it was what I thought it was and he said it was. Price was either $65 or $85, I couldn't tell which but I'm still in K11 mode. I look at my wife and say, this is the bag I need. It was 1942 which is my rifles year of production. I mentioned that to the guy and we chit chatted a bit more. I told him I was looking at a rifle and couldn't buy anything until I had made my decision.

We left, I went back to the car to check my Military Firearms book which has price guides. It's also two years old so a little behind. I figure the rifle based on condition is probably in the $325 range so $295 wasn't a bad deal. I only had $140 on me. My wife asks if I wanted it (She really wanted me to take her to King of Prussia) and says she has her birthday stash in her purse. Enough to finish out the rifle deal at least.

Bayonet meantime lists between $75 and $200 so that checked out ok too. I tell her I'm going to try to make a better deal for the rifle. I get back and the "Gun Guy" isn't there, some younger dude is and he doesn't look like a dude you can deal with. So frustrated, I just mill around there for 10 minutes until the gun guy gets back. He spots me and says "You must really want that" I told him I'm interested but the price is still holding me back. He knocks another $15 off it for an even $280.00. I hesitated, took a chance and ask if there is any way he can get to $250. He thinks about it and counters with $260.00. Deal.

So I'm heading away and my wife asks if I want the bayonet. I told her I thought it was a lot of money (not that it wasn't worth it, just that for me at that moment, it was a lot of money). She said she still had money left and if I wanted it, she had enough. I figured I'd go take a chance and see if he'd take $75 for it. He saw me coming and saw the rifle and we talked a bit about it. I asked him straight out what the best he could do on the bayonet and he said $65 and there we are.

I was happy, the wife was happy I was going to take her to King of Prussia and I'm still not thinking too seriously about what this deal was actually going to cost me.

I get home, check the rifle over real well, like what I see and begin the investigation of the bayonet. Almost immediately the red flags went up. There is only ONE manufacturer, Singer, and they are all marked one of two ways. And mine doesn't have the marks. My guide didn't tell me that, only to watch out for fakes which I thought I had done a pretty good job of. Site after site is the same thing. I then decide to check out the fakes and think if Old Smithys site. My bayonet looks way too good to be a fake so I'm major confused.

As a last resort, and I say that because it's tough being embarrassed by those that know better that you've been had, I posted my first post here, hoping that I missed something. I then went back to Old Smithys to see what the real ones look like and found one just like mine.

So that's the story. King of Prussia indeed made me earn that deal. 15 or 16 black dresses that all looked the same later, a crying wife, a bride to be on the phone, a half mile dash back from Penneys to Bloomingdales to buy dress number 12 with 15 minutes before the mall closed and we were done. Turned out the dress was on sale, cost much less than expected so I was happy about that too which helped balance out the anxiety about buying a fake bayonet with the wife's blessing.

[browningautorifle]

Enough to make a man drink...

[Peter Laidler]

After just having had a browse through Graham Priests 'bible', here's a couple of questions from someone who's totally clueless about bayonets.
Have you actually clecked the width of the socket to see/confirm whether the original markings have been ground off and re-marked. A micrometer should make it clearly obvious.

Can anyone identify that LX mark or is it a bit of corrosion/flaking? This looks like a manufacturers logo to me - and it ain't Singer!

Having refurbished several thousand bayonets and many other sorts of weaponry, it would be MOST unusual and to my knowledge/experience, totally unheard of, to actually REMOVE the old designation and then, after having invisibly done so, even leaving steel cast 'scabbing', RE-engrave the same designation.

The new designation looks pantograph engraved as opposed to being roll pressed on or stamped with the usual factory foot-press

Just my comments, but it definately doesn't look like the usual fake straight tapered point