Whitaker Special Register

[Strangely Brown]

I am in the process of compiling a register of Whitaker Specials and would like the assistance of members on this forum to help if they know of the existance of an example?

Bert Whitaker converted 116 No.4's and I believe one P17, to a one piece wood furniture target rifle, at least one found it's way to Canada as a Bisley prize in the 1970's.

Information regarding examples that have been scrapped, or re-converted to original status in the case of Whitakers with No.4 T recievers is also invited. (UK RFD's can you help?)

What am I after?

Serial numbers.
(89 examples starting at 001 are known with 26 examples using the rifles original serial number)

Any modifications, has the reciver been drilled, is is it a No.4T or has it been drilled subsequently?

Replies here or my email: mick_kelly@talk21.com

All information recieved will be treated in the strictest confidence, the register will only contain serial numbers, notes on modifications and details of where and whom the rifle was supplied to.

Thanks in anticipation.

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[muffett.2008]

I hope you have good luck with that, you should as you mention No.4T's, I requested info on Omark model 44 serial numbers here because I knew that a few members here had one and we have discussed them in this forum, but even though it superseded the L.E's in the target game and was set up to their spec's, it was moved elsewhere to die a quick death.
Not everyone follows the other forums on this site.

(No offence Mod's.....)

[RJW NZ]

Interesting question, I've never heard of a Whitaker rifle,

Used Lee Enfield Whittaker Special 7.62mm Rifle for sale | GunStar.


www.full-bore.co.uk View topic - Whitaker Special Pictures

[Strangely Brown]

Interesting question, I've never heard of a Whitaker rifle,

Used Lee Enfield Whittaker Special 7.62mm Rifle for sale | GunStar.


www.full-bore.co.uk View topic - Whitaker Special Pictures

The first link is for a rifle converted by Geoff Hart, at least I think it is. The dealer concerned has so far ignored my request for more details.............

The second link comes with my apologies!
I had ommitted to pay my Fototime account and so the pictures were unviewable, they can now be seen, thanks RJW for providing the links.

[Strangely Brown]

I hope you have good luck with that, you should as you mention No.4T's, I requested info on Omark model 44 serial numbers here because I knew that a few members here had one and we have discussed them in this forum, but even though it superseded the L.E's in the target game and was set up to their spec's, it was moved elsewhere to die a quick death.
Not everyone follows the other forums on this site.

(No offence Mod's.....)

I think the association between Omarks and Endfield's is sometimes overlooked by those who don't understand the history and concept of target rifle from 1968 onwards; and to be fair it's very much a Commonwealth thing!

[Peter Laidler]

There's a name from the past....... My old boss here, Lt Col TW and his opposite number Lt Col TB were looking into the pre trials stage of the L39 and as a result, they were called in to look at the L81 rifle later. As a result of this experience, it was suggested that they look into the what he called 'flat body bedding' concept as applied to the Mauser/L81 and Whittaker Enfield Rifles. (Forgive me if I've got the terminology wrong but I've just tried to phone him and he's out.....). After lengthy discussions at the DD Enfield and Shrivenham, they concluded that this design, when applied to the Enfield body was what you'd politely call simply fuzzy logic. A better description was that it was a frill, if not a complete fraud.

I'll ask him for more details when I see him next if anyone is really interested.

On the plus side, my friend bought a butchered Whittraker ex- 'T' version megga cheap, just for the body pads and good-ish barrel

[Roger Payne]

Your mate did well DPL if he got the pads on the WS. Of the few complete that I've seen all the ex-T's had had the pads removed & the 4BA screw holes filled. As an aside, (& I think I may have mentioned this to Strangely already), but twenty years ago I was introduced to a then ageing Geoff Hart by my cousin who used to shoot with him. He was coming to the end of his gunsmithing days then. He told me he had been using a source of No 4 receivers (I think acquired from Bert Whittaker), that he used for his conversions. As he was giving up, & as my cousin knew I'd be interested, I did a deal with Geoff for the last 4 remaining receivers. They were all No4 T's & all retained their pads. One was a 1931 Trials rifle complete with mag cut-off & the other three were 'ordinary' BSA's. I know I robbed the world of four more 'Hart Specials' (by the way, do they differ in any material way from the Whittakers?), but I'm glad I saved four T's to live again, albeit rebuilt.

ATB

[Strangely Brown]

Yes Roger I remember the conversation!

Essentially Geoff was working after Bert Whitaker had done all the ground work; and therefore had the ability to see what was new in the market place.
In this case John Light (Brindles Sights) had produced a trigger for the No.4 which was a vast improvment for the TR shooter over the service two stage and Geoff incorporated this in his conversions.
This is one area, and whilst I haven't done all the ground work I suspect longer (heavier??) barrels were very much more in evidence when Geoff started to convert No.4's & P17's.

I met Geoff's wife Ivy at Bisley last year when a memorial plaque was put on the clock tower wall, she's in her nineties and still enjoying a fa g!

Geoff's eldest daughter has found his RFD register which she has promised me sight of when we next meet up.
I'm looking forward to that because it will put Bert's & Geoff's work in a time frame along with George Swenson's Swing design.

Edited because it won't accept British slang for a cigarette!!

[Roger Payne]

Thanks Mick. That's certainly clarified one or two issues for me. If you get to go through Geoff's register then take a look around 1992/3 & you'll no doubt see those four receivers booked out to yours truly! I hope you do get to see it as it should fill in a lot of gaps for you. Good luck with the research.

ATB

[RJW NZ]

I found those Whitaker links by doing an image search and then following them to their home, an increasingly interesting way to 'hunt'.

Can anyone explain how the receiver is attached to the forend? I saw a locally gun smithed rifle with a similar concept, wrist removed, and the rear of the receiver had a 1 inch tang welded on, similar to a musket, and a hole drilled and tapped for the rear anchor of the receiver.
It was a sporterised hunter style rifle, for $275? which is pretty good money, and it sold quickly, I gather an Auckland gunsmith had made several and they were well known, perhaps even desired, judging by how quickly that sold.

Removing the wrist on an Enfield would be a very interesting proposition, considering the hours that have been spent discussing its role in an Enfields accuracy, excepting that the designers weren't idiots and would have tried this for accuracy improvements and didn't order its removal on the No4 rifle.
There's almost room for a a whole book on the philosophy behind the design of the Enfield, lol.