Use of Brit SMLE No.4 Mk.1 T by Aust Army in WWII

[Peter Laidler]

Desert warfare simply doesn't lend itself to sniping. It's like shooting from a window with the net curtains closed. Every time you shoot, the curtains billow out - just like dust - which is the very last thing a sniper needs

[gwahlert]

Hello, Glenn. I see you found your way here eventually, mate.
The Johnson with the Patt18 scope was an interesting little experiment. Must say I did a double-take when I spotted it!

I can't help on your present inquiry but one thing I am going to mention... Your terminology regards referring to the No4 rifle as an SMLE is incorrect. The No4 was a new development, it superseded the SMLE... It would be like calling a holden commodore a kingswood.

Cheers, mate..

Brad (at the school)

Thanx Son. I hadn't picked up on that. Yes, this Forum is great. These guys have helped me out on a number of queries & some continue to feed me info via private messages. Cheers, Glenn

[gwahlert]

Peter. The AIF had no snipers at that stage. The capability had been deemed as not required anymore, so they stopped training them. They were used to a fairly broad extent in Korea, but the rifles were returned shortly after and there was no more sniper training until the early seventies. Once it was decided to re commence sniper training, the school here was set up to do it and in the absence of a rifle more recent, they dragged out the Lithgow No1 MkIII# HT again to train with, even though the rest of the army had the SLR. It all culminated in the trials that saw the PH M82 adopted.

In Ian Kurring's book "From Red Coats To Cams" I cannot recall seeing mention of any snipers or equipment used by our troops in Malaya, but then, during Vietnam they were aligned closely with the Americans and utilised their gear. I have spoken with Ian at great length on the topic, so I would think any use of the 4T in Malaya would not have been official... But, as usual, I am ready to be corrected on this.

You're right Son. Sniping was a lost art in Malaya. No evidence of it being performed in any of the war diaries nor is there any photographic (or other) evidence in the AWM. I have also spoken 'at great length' with Ian (I don't think anyone has had a short conversation with Ian - great guy).

---------- Post added at 08:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:40 PM ----------

I'm sure that I have mentioned this before but in SVN 8-RAR had a small sniper section or at least 'trained' snipers run by Cpl 'Taffy' Bond that will be on record. I think son has hit the nail on the head about 'true'[ sniping in the 60's Australian Army. The No4's we had were definately an official issue because the Poms had the same until they withdrew in 1967.

Interesting thread

Apart from Bond & one other attending a US sniper course in SVN, and conducting two trial ops (neither of which resulted in any contacts) with loaned US XM sniper rifles, Aust didn't do any sniping in SVN. I was able to confirm this with two of 8 RARs company comes, including Taffy Bond's OC.

[Bruce_in_Oz]

"with loaned US XM sniper rifles,"

Some years back, I had my sticky paws on a REAL XM-21 (marked as such on the rear of the receiver), that resided in the armoury of one of the Brisbane based battalions. It was complete with case and had the correct glass on top. NOBODY from the unit concerned seemed to know what it was or how it came to be in their "collection".

I have not seen it again, but would suspect that it, along with vast amounts of other interesting goodies, has been "rendered innocuous", or simply sent to the smelter in order to make some people feel better.

[Son]

Bruce, there is one at the SOI Museum. Not sure if it will be on display at the new premises, but we did not weld it...
Here's an old pic of it, sitting above an M82 PH... I think I know where there is another XM21

Attachment 35923

[Rastis]

G'Day,
An old digger who served in New Guinea and Borneo told me that the "snipers" used the pattern 14 with peep sights. With the scoped rifles on offer, the telescope was prone to knocks and could not be relied on.

Rastis

[gwahlert]

Just had a chance to read through all the recent posts on this thread and noticed that I owe some replies. Sorry for delay - been overseas.

Ned / Lithy - Ned, my apologies for not introducing myself when I first started using this Forum but as a new member I wasn't sure of the protocols, and was a bit intimidated by the members' knowledge - my technical knowledge of weapons in general, and Lee Enfields in particular, is lacking. Oh, as to the Omark ... it will be covered in the book both as a trial rifle and as a stop-gap weapons betwwen the old SMLE HT and the arrival of the Parker Hale.

PrinzEugen - Yep, I will cover Korea (writing that Chapt now). I was lucky in being able to interview two old 3 RAR (?) snipers from Korea. They were actually a sniper pair in the closing stages of the War (oops, I mean the police action). Realy interesting interviews - neither had a chance to fire their SMLE HTs until they got to Korea, and then had to learn on the job. I guess that they were fairly good at it as we all know what happens to bad snipers in combat. A particulalry interesting aspect of our chat was their use of the early Starlight scopes. They thought these were a real pain in the arse as one of them had to carry a car battery to power the scope on night patrols. There was also a bit of info in the battalion war diaries at the AWM.

Peter L - Re the images you put up re the Pommie soldier with an MP40 ... there was also an Aust officer (9 Div?) who picked up an MP40 in the desert, brought it back to Aust and used it as his personal weapon in PNG. He used standard Aust 9mm amm0, but I don't know what performance or stoppage issues this may have caused. He lost the SMG in a contact soon after arriving on the Track.

Paul S - Re Aust use of the Rifle No.4 Mk.I (thanx Brad for reminding me of the correct label for this rifle) ... Members of this Forum gave me some great info to track our use of the No.4 in WWII. While not common, there were a number of battalion marksmen who got hold of one and used it in the Pacific campaign - they particulalry liked the No.4s aperture sights - but I don't know if they were any better than the SMLE H's aperture sights (anyone know answer?) Many of the Indep Coys / Cmdo Sqns also used at least one No.4 in each of their platoons / troops or patrol teams from about mid 1942 - don't know where they got them from. However, there's still no solid evidence of us using the No.4 T, at least I have been unable to locate any.

Son / Brad - The Inf Centre Museum is indeed a great resource for everything re Aust small arms (and those used by our past enemies). The Curator there, John Land, an ex ASM, has been very generous in assisting me with a nimber of the finer points of our, and German / Jap / Italian, small arms.

Bruce - As Brad said, Inf Centre Museum at SIngleton has one of the two XM-21 used by 8 RAR in SVN. It is operational and in very good nick. Not sure if it will be on display in the new museum building as the floor space is much reduced from the old museum. Maybe it'll be rotated with some of the other rarer items.

Rastis - A number of snipers did indeed prefer the P14's peep sights over the telescope. The scope was also very difficult to maintain and keep from misting-up in the jungle. Nevertheless, there were some snipers that persevered with the scope on the Rifle No.3 Mk.I* W (T), eventually worked out effective tactics, techniques & procedures and produced some amazing results.

Update - Some of you have asked how my research is going and if I needed any help, images, etc. I have written chapts covering the period of the Boer War, through WWI and to the end of WWII. AM now researching & writing the post-WWII period. This will be relatively short as while Korea is a very interesting sniper story, we did buggar all sniper work in either Malaya or Vietnam. The next chapt will deal with the post-Vietnam period and the resurrection of the lost sniper art in the late 1970s. LTCOL Russell Linwood (ex OC of the Sniper Wing, and the guy that got sniper trg back into the Aust Army) has been very helpful, as has Brian Manns, an ex sniper intructor at the Inf SChool in the early 1980s. The penultimate chapt covers more recent sniper ops in Somalia, East Timor and Afghanistan. I need to be careful with this chap due to OPSEC, but there is a lot of info in the public domain, and a number of current Army snipers and battalion COs have been very helpful. I wiil, however, have to keep away from Special Forces Ops (for obvious reasons). Finally, the last chap deals with the future of sniping. We have come a long way since the first Australian, SGT David Mortimer, attended the British Armiy's Sniping, Observation and Scouting (SOS) course in France in June 1916. And technology is allowing us to go even further.

Help - I'm doing pretty well with images - have access the all the Army museums, AWM image archive and Army History Units data base - but would appreciate some help with some of the more technical aspects of the book. If anyone out there would be able to read through some of my chapters to find errors (such as calling the Rifle No.4 an SMLE No.4) and advise me of any suggested corrections, I'd be very appreciative. If someone has a particulare period of expertise, such as Boer, First or Second World Wars, or even more recent period, please let me know.

Thank you to all the very helpful people that have assisted to date.

Cheers, Glenn

[Paul S.]

Glenn, Thanks for the update. I for one am really looking forward to your book being published.

[pe4king]

I'd love to find one of the original S&B 3-12x50 PM telescopes with the Mildot too but I'm probably grasping at straws

I managed to pick one of these up last year L17A1, though im afraid it isnt for sale as it sits lovingly atop of my AIAW

[pe4king]

Here it is sorry if I have hijacked the thread