Does anyone know if sniper rifles were issued to 2nd AIF for service in Middle east

[Surpmil]

Only a few things to add: read about an Aussie or Kiwi "sniper" in the desert who used a K98 for working close to the German lines. Presumably un-scoped, but that is a presumption.

Have never seen any photos of scoped K98s in Africa. Germans did use all kinds of other optical equipment however, and if it was usable, presumably rifle scopes would be as well. Same for our side, except our side was even more clueless in regard to sniping at that point than the Germans.

Read about an officer using a "private purchase" sniping rifle near the end of the African campaign; definitely a scoped rifle. No other details and I cannot remember the source now.

Should be possible to determine the equipment of formations from their organization: if they had a scout or sniping section, they must have had the rifles too.

If the rifles were on issue in Australia and NZ before the war, they would have been taken along surely? Troops, even senior officers, are not typically told where they are going until they are on their way. Too late to be dropping kit at that point, unless left on ships upon disembarkation.

Better ask the vets. DAK still has an association; somebody write them a letter.

Plenty of places to snipe from in the desert in those days. Knocked out tanks & vehicles being a prime one. Rocky terrain, darkness, adjacent MG or gunfire, early morning or late evening sun glare: all good cover for a sniper I would think.

[Arthur OZ]

Pete,
During training on the Vickers MMG we were taught to lay a gas cape under the muzzle to try to eliminate as much disturbance as possible. Probably worked better in training than real life?

[Peter Laidler]

Good point Arthur but the muzzle of the Vickers is 2 feet or so above the ground and STILL causes much dust when it's dry, even dry as in Salkisbury Plain dry. The Boys and a rifle in the prone position are 6" or so above the desert.

I hear what Surpmill says in thread 11 but the facts speak for themselves. Sniping didn't play any more than a very minor part in the desert war simply due to the terrain and vast distances. And regardless of the opportunities for hides, the sniper has still got to get there, hide, stalk to within 800 yards or so, kill, collect intelligence and get back. Oh, and I nearly forgot..... to carry enough water too. And if he hasn't got an escape route, the remainder is just an academic exercise

[Bruce_in_Oz]

When people think of WW2 in the Middle east, I guess the general picture is of lots of rolling sand dunes.

If, however one were sent to the Levant, there was opportunity for urban, mountain and snow warfare.

I have some pictures of Oz SKI troops, complete with white smocks etc. somewhere in the files. Oz actually trained "alpine" troops in the Mt. Kusciusko area in WW2. When I dig out those pics, I'll try to post them.

As for Oz snipers in the big sand-pit? Unknown. At the start of WW2, about the only "sniper" gear in the system was the good old P-14 with Patt 18 on top. Several of these were apparently put to good use in Timor before the Japanese finally overwhelmed the place.

[Paul S.]

2 AIF (6 DIV I believe) also trained ski troops in the Middle East.

[muffett.2008]

Attachment 350739 Div. Ski Company, trained in Syria, Disbanded shortly after.
I mentioned Alex before, all the best rifle shots from the middle east grouped together in one company, for one reason.

[Surpmil]

Attachment 350739 Div. Ski Company, trained in Syria, Disbanded shortly after.
I mentioned Alex before, all the best rifle shots from the middle east grouped together in one company, for one reason.

And what was that reason?

[muffett.2008]

Re read posts 4 and 10.
My understanding is that they trained as mixed sections, sometimes Inf. other times MG, but the primary role was to disrupt/discourage attempts to penetrate around fixed positions.
The use of top marksmen allowed them to use the advantage of range and height to discourage the opposition.
The use of scopes was not very common in the desert, due I guess to the difficulty to protect it from dust and bumps, my thought would have been reflection, my uncle, who was with the 2/3rd Anti Tank, (look for the surname in the official history) used to say the snipers trying to take out the gun teams could be spotted by the glint of the scopes.
So I guess we know the opposition used scopes.

[Peter Laidler]

We just tie a layer of face veil over the OG end of the scope - that's why you had two big full size face veils. They were originally about 4' x 4' square in either khaki, brown/green camo pattern or deep sand coloured! You can still see the target through the mesh net but it eliminates the glint or reflection. We still do it today. I'm sure that this would have been common practice for all armies especially for the big lenses on the spotting scopes. Try it and see for yourself. There is even a 'glare mat' specially made for the new breed of S&B scopes were using. Thin matt-black shutters. Same meat, different gravy.

The current snipers on desert ops are re-learning and debunking many desert myths as we speak. They're learning how it should be done from the Aden era/breed of snipers

[servicepub]

British and Canadian Equipment Scales called for eight sniper rifles per Infantry battalion. I am under the impression that the Australian Army followed the same ES, regardless of where the battalion may be at any one time.
Failure to follow established standards would cause havoc in a procurement and, by extension, supply system. Based on this I would say that, yes, the 2nd AIF were issued with sniper rifles in the Middle East. Whether they were ever used is another argument.
Clive