NWMP Martini

[GrantRCanada]

Ian:

My apologies for perhaps sounding a bit "snarky" .... but I was indeed getting the impression that you were unwilling to be dissuaded from what you had been told about this rifle. (I also realize that it might have seemed like I was talking through my hat when you had seen another Mark IV with the same markings, for which the same explanation was being given. However, if that rifle was indeed marked the same as yours, then it too would have been in service in Pakistan, and presumably its owner was simply believing a similar tale about it.)

As I mentioned, no Mark IV M-H rifles are known to have been acquired by Canada. I should add that you don't simply have to take my word for this assertion, but can rely on the extensive research of such people as David Edgecombe (C.F. Brig.Gen., Ret.) author of "Defending the Dominion: Canadian Military Rifles 1855-1955" (published 2003) who spent years scouring through all available Militia Department records, parliamentary and fiscal reports, etc. to produce his book. Mind you, I am not entirely without some knowledge in the area ..... here is how he autographed my copy .... ....

To answer your final question, Mark IV rifles were not really ever issued to British regular troops, but rather only to reserve forces and also to native and colonial troops.

It is relevant to review the circumstances and time-frame of the production and use of the Mark IV Martini-Henry. At the time it came on the scene (.... none were issued until 1888, if I recall correctly ....) Britain had already adopted its first bolt-action repeating rifle: the .303 Magazine Lee-Metford (shortly to become the Magazine Lee-Enfield upon a change of rifling design). While the new .303 rifle was in development, there was also yet another program under way to develop a reduced-caliber (.402") single-shot rifle with a re-designed Martini action - and this "Rifle, Enfield-Martini, Mark I" had actually gone into production (1887 I think) with some 65,000 rifles already finished.

With the formal adoption of the new .303 rifle in 1888, many of the existing .450 Martini-Henry Mk I, II and III rifles in the hands of troops would necessarily have to remain in service during the changeover - i.e. until all Regular troops could be re-armed with the new repeating rifle. Also, in keeping with long-standing practice, Martini-Henry rifles would remain the standard-issue rifle for British reserve troops and also for "colonial" and "native" forces for quite a few years to come. Rather than having rifles in Empire military service chambered for three different cartridges at the same time (i.e. .450 Martini-Henry, .402 Enfield-Martini and .303 Lee-Metford) the entire Enfield-Martini program was scrapped before any of those rifles got issued (except perhaps on a "trials" basis) and the many rifles already produced were altered to chamber the existing .577/.450 M-H cartridge .... with the altered rifles being re-designated as the Martini-Henry Mark IV. Manufacture of this model continued until about 100,000 Mark IV Martini-Henry rifles had been produced in total. (In these circumstances, of course, all M-H Mk IV rifles were destined for issue only to reserve and "colonial/native" troops ....)

As a matter of fact, in the receiver markings on the approximately 65,000 Enfield-Martini rifles converted to Martini-Henry Mark IV rifles, the "I" of the Roman numeral "IV" is centered directly below the arrow-point of the crown-and-arrow "lock viewers mark" underneath the date ..... because they had already been stamped as Enfield-Martini Mark I rifles. When they were converted to .577/.450 and their designation was changed to "Martini-Henry, Mark IV", a "V" was stamped alongside the existing "I" .... with the result that the "IV" is off-center in relation to the markings above it -


Later-production rifles (such as yours), having been made after the .402" Enfield-Martini program was scrapped, were marked "IV" at the outset .... which is "centered" in relation to the markings above it ......

[harlton]

Hi Grant,
No worries I never took anything as Snarky, and I was viewing the picture from a different perspective, being pre-programmed by what I thought was a reliable source, with matching stories and the strange co-incidences.
Very grateful for the time you have taken with this thorough explanation. I think this explains the Martini/Peabody that the guy had on his display with the same stamp on it to.
I'm convinced it's now a fairly easy leap to assume that a dealer somewhere was stuck with some odd ball Martini's he couldn't shift back in the day, A quick change from F to M and I'm sure whoever purchased them, was just as pleased to own a piece of Canadian history, I know I was. still I would rather know the truth, than perpetuate a lie, so thank you very much.
On the plus side:- It now goes with the others I have, and takes the pressure off of repairing the butt as I would not want to screw up a NWMP logo.
A Pleasure conversing with you, and thanks for all the information, very good of you. I bet some stories could be told if only it could talk, same job different continent.

Regards Ian.

[GrantRCanada]

Ian:

In my collection is a Martini-Metford cavalry carbine with this mark on the butt -



It is a nice little shooter which I traded for ..... but thankfully I had sufficient knowledge to avoid "paying" for any supposed NWMP connection or service. In addition to knowing that there is no record of the NWMP having any Martini-Metford carbines, I was also aware that this particular stamp .... fairly recognizable by many people as a legitimate NWMP marking ..... was in fact a Winchester stamp, used by that company at its factory to mark the Model 1876 carbines made for the Force - and accordingly is only legitimate on such Winchesters.

Apparently the original stamp ended up in private hands and then was lost track of ..... and this mark is known to have subsequently turned up on a variety of firearms other than NWMP Winchesters - presumably applied using either the original Winchester stamp or a copy - obviously in an attempt to fake a Mounted Police connection. The carbine is an interesting curiosity in my collection .... and also happens to be very accurate!

The only known NWMP firearm I have is a .476 Enfield Mark II revolver ..... although unmarked (not uncommon with these revolvers) its serial number is documented as one of the revolvers in NWMP service.

[maxim]

Could one conclude that the fellows in the photo were dressed in scarlet red tunics? That would make for an impressive scene out on the firing line.

[GrantRCanada]

Could one conclude that the fellows in the photo were dressed in scarlet red tunics?

Yes.

Most of them appear to be wearing either the scarlet "field frock", as seen in this Frederic Remington painting "North West Mounted Police 1887" .....



.... or the scarlet tunic (which was longer in the body and had more trim - e.g. the piping visible on collar and shoulder straps.)

Mind you, the chap sitting beside the trophies (on the left) must be a Senior NCO - or perhaps even a Commissioned Officer - since he is apparently wearing a rather plain version of the dark blue Patrol Jacket authorized for those ranks, somewhat like the one worn by this circa-1890 Staff Sergeant -



As evident from the Remington image, the service rifle of the NWMP at the time was actually the special pattern Model 1876 Winchester carbine made for them in .45-75 -



That is what was normally used in shooting competition within the Force -

[harlton]

Hi Grant,
I dread to think of the chaos, a legitimate stamp could do in the wrong hands. I remember the guy having a Winchester, and some revolvers, but I'm not a handgun guy,so I don't remember them, I just enjoy shooting old rifles.
I have a lee Enfield cavalry carbine in my collection, a sweet little gun.Your right about the knowledge, and I don't have sufficient to avoid problems, so I stick to ordinary guns and then I don't have to worry about them, or feel guilty when shooting or modifying them.
I cannot remember what I allowed on the trade, $800 comes to mind, which I understood to be a fair value for a good Martini back then. He wanted a Triumph Bonneville I had and couldn't use at the time, due to injury.
The rifle bore is close to perfect and the action very crisp. I was never really able to rationalise the inner to outer condition, but now with what you have told me, it comes together.
In my world a small number of specials, brought in for a competition is standard rather than unusual. So this is not an outlandish story to me, from my perspective. I'm most appreciative for all the information especially, and more than a little truth shone on the matter.

Regards Ian

[englishman_ca]

Photos in your gallery appear to be that of a K98

[GrantRCanada]

I assume that the OP has taken the images out of his gallery, his posts on this topic having been some five months ago .....

At any rate, they were of a Mark IV Martini-Henry, including these markings -





(The markings I show in Post #7 were to illustrate other Pakistan-related examples, including a much clearer Rawul-Pindi "RP" mark and roundel.)

The stamp which was being interpreted as a NWMP marking is the roundel which says "N.W.?.P. Police" - in view of the Mark of the rifle and Pakistan markings, there seems to be little doubt that the illegible letter is an "F" .... i.e. "N.W.F.P. (North West Frontier Province) Police".