1944 Lithgow

[Homer]

If this was a spare '44 manufactured action, it would not have a S/N until mated with a barrel, there have been a couple of rifles posted either here or on Gunboards that had no prefix when they should.
The question is, if this action was assembled post 1945 as a complete rifle, who would make the decission as to what prefix, if any would be assigned?
If we tried to use a 1944 prefix, they were all issued, we could use F, or leave it blank, I recall something about a set allocation of numbers for new replacement receivers, clarification anyone?

Muffer my suggestion is that the rifle underwent two major rebuilds. The first when the action was replaced, say in 1944 when it was probably mated to the original barrel serial numbered 36662 and then the second, an FTR in 1951 when the new barrel was fitted to it and numbered to the action.

[Detroit-1]

I will try to get better pictures but my old camera has problems focusing that close. It is not just the barrel that has the no letter seriel number. The bolt, nose piece,and fore stock all have 36662 without the letter. The assembly number matches on both the bolt and reciever.

[Peter Laidler]

New bodies - the master component - were NEVER available from/through the Ordnance System as a spare part. Never, ever...... in the UK, NZ and Australia Although a part number was allocated in the VAOS lists or as part of a catalogue, as I have said in the past, these lists were a list of PARTS and not a list of AVAILABLE parts. The master component was the rifle. This didn't only affect weaponry but for other things that came under a special VAOS category of V&A for Valuable and Attractive. Other parts were Compass cases, binocular bodies, Night vision tubes (although later they did come through) Wrist watch casings and a zillion other things.

Foir example, battle damaged L1A1 rifle and MG bodies in SVn were all accounted for,m certified and a new item issued. NEVER rebodied - in my knowledge. It might have been different post 1972 but........

[Aussie48]

Your right Peter any L1A1 that was sent back for refurbishment the old number was struck out and a new number issued and stamped.
This No 1 is a weird one I suspect the only information available on the number would be from the Lithgow Museum now, strange I didn't notice the import/export marks before which still leads me to believe it was out of the Moorebank war stocks that were disposed of in the late 80's.

[Ridolpho]

I'm following this thread for educational purposes- I only own one Lithgow and know next to nothing about them. Looking closely at one of the photos (right side of receiver) I see "Australia" and "JA CO..etc". Are these of any significance?

Ridolpho

[muffett.2008]

I see what you're getting at Demo, but I'm in agreement with Peter, If the rifle required a new action, it would have been stripped and written off.
This is at the peak of wartime production, no shortage of rifles, had it been 1940 than that might be different.
The clue is with the buyer/distributor stamp, Detroit, can you give us shots of other marks, including proofs?

[Bindi2]

New bodies - the master component - were NEVER available from/through the Ordnance System as a spare part. Never, ever...... in the UK, NZ and Australia Although a part number was allocated in the VAOS lists or as part of a catalogue, as I have said in the past, these lists were a list of PARTS and not a list of AVAILABLE parts. The master component was the rifle. This didn't only affect weaponry but for other things that came under a special VAOS category of V&A for Valuable and Attractive. Other parts were Compass cases, binocular bodies, Night vision tubes (although later they did come through) Wrist watch casings and a zillion other things.

Foir example, battle damaged L1A1 rifle and MG bodies in SVn were all accounted for,m certified and a new item issued. NEVER rebodied - in my knowledge. It might have been different post 1972 but........

I used to agree with you on this Peter but somebody from NZ ( 5th Bat maybe ) has an English rifle with a Lithgow action all with matching numbers. The action and bolt have been numbered to match the barrel and nose cap. There were no barred out numbers or grind marks.
Hope he sees this thread and puts up the pictures again.

[Detroit-1]

I will take the gun on Fri. to a friend who does pro. photos. I will get all the marks but I will not take the barrel out of the fore stock again.

[Homer]

I see what you're getting at Demo, but I'm in agreement with Peter, If the rifle required a new action, it would have been stripped and written off.
This is at the peak of wartime production, no shortage of rifles, had it been 1940 than that might be different.
The clue is with the buyer/distributor stamp, Detroit, can you give us shots of other marks, including proofs?

Muffer I also fail to see the logic behind replacing an action body but the examples are just too many to ignore. Just recently I handled one almost identical to this one that was absolutely legitimate in my mind. If the factory wanted to scrub a serial number for whatever reason, I would think they would without too much regard for prettying it up. I have several examples of FTR'd rifles where an old military district number was ground off and one with a serial number ground off and that is exactly what you see, a ground off number with no pretty finishing carried out. The fact that it has matching batch assembly numbers on the action and bolt adds a little more intrigue and perhaps more supports the argument that this was a pre-used 44 dated action, or does it? I still fail to see any indication of a previous serial number being removed. There are a number of unused and unnumbered 40's dated actions floating around now in private hands that would have been kept in surplus. Why? This gun certainly does not have the appearance of one of the guns Jovino's company put together and therefore would have been imported by him as a whole gun as is directly from government sales. If it was one of his put together rifles wouldn't it have the A suffix, and how do we explain the FTR and MA51 stamp on the receiver that look absolutely legitimate Lithgow stamps. Therefore it would have been serial numbered during the FTR or before but not after. The numbers on action and bolt look identical but marginally different to the barrel and nosecap, so I'm still suggesting that the action and bolt were numbered sometime during 1944 or just after and the barrel was numbered to match during the FTR in 1951 as well as the nosecap.
As Peter would say, flak hat on waiting for the barrage.

[Homer]

I used to agree with you on this Peter but somebody from NZ ( 5th Bat maybe ) has an English rifle with a Lithgow action all with matching numbers. The action and bolt have been numbered to match the barrel and nose cap. There were no barred out numbers or grind marks.
Hope he sees this thread and puts up the pictures again.

Bindi his is not the only one. I have not personally held it or looked at the photographic proof, yet, but I am aware of another one that is similar to Stuarts only with a 1928 dated lithgow action and again with no cut-off slot. The 1928 dated action fits in because many 1928 and mid 30's dated actions that remained in surplus during the quiet period were assembled into full rifles for the first time at the early stages of the war. Also apparently another chap in WA has one similar, a 1939 dated action with no cut-off slot and much earlier serial number but I am not aware of the specifics of that one.