Why did LSA make No1 MkIII rifles throughout WWI?

[Surpmil]

I have a 1918 dated London Small Arms MkIII. I have seen others dated 1916 and 1917. I have also seen reference to LSA MkIII* rifles dated 1918.

Why did LSA continue to make MkIII rifles after the official change to MkIII*?

Information

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[Peter Laidler]

I don't know the official answer Surpmil but just from the purely engineering point of view, learned while rsaearching the Bren Gun and MG body production engineering as a mature engineering student, as I have explained several times before, a production line change is not a case of simply deleting a simple machining process. It canm mean stopping production for days at a time, changing machine tools and operations. Worse still, it can be that some part of the fixture or other process is inter-related with the slotting part so this has to be changed and then........ and then......... That is why the Bren gun took so long to morph from Mk1 to Mk1A - the last change being to remove the flutes from the gas cylinder. These were used as large area clamping areas for later body machine operations.

This is the reason why Inglis NEVER removed the gas cylinder flutes when the Mk1 morphed from Mk1 to Mk1M. And as they had no effect on gas cylinder cooling, that's just how they remained.......... Maybe, just maybe, like the Mk3 slotted 1918 No1 rifle bodies

[Peter Laidler]

As a Ford engineer Paul, I'm sure you understand about these 'simple' production line changes that I mention. Two from Pressed Steel in Swindon relating to MG bodies, that they used for student lectures (by a great production engineering tutor called Mr Ray Neave) was the insertion of reversing lights into the rear panel of MGB's and the proposed Mk1 to Mk2 (recessed grille) changes to the MGB where a simple proposed change to the bonnet and therefore the bonnet landing platform would have run into hundreds of thousands of £££££'s in tooling and everything else changes. The changes from Mk1 GT rear badging to cheaper Mk2 badging was only do-able because the cheaper one-piece badge would EVENTUALLY out weigh the cost of the re-tooling.... But, as I'm want to do, I digress........

[Thunderbox]

Little is known about the actual component production during WW1. Its quite possible that quantities of certain MkIII-specific parts (ie forends, volley sight plates, cut-offs) had already been produced, or that those sub-contractors had fixed contracts that couldn't easily be cancelled. It could be that LSA was nominated to use up this production, or that they guessed (correctly) that the Army would revert to MkIII specification when the war finished.

[Surpmil]

Little is known about the actual component production during WW1. Its quite possible that quantities of certain MkIII-specific parts (ie forends, volley sight plates, cut-offs) had already been produced, or that those sub-contractors had fixed contracts that couldn't easily be cancelled. It could be that LSA was nominated to use up this production, or that they guessed (correctly) that the Army would revert to MkIII specification when the war finished.

Thanks Peter and Thunderbox. My first guess would have been that such previously produced parts would have been sent to the workshops in France and elsewhere to maintain the MkIII rifles already in use, but perhaps parts such as long range sights and cutoffs were simply not replaced, or only replaced from salvaged parts?

One of many questions we'll probably never know the answer to I suppose.

[breakeyp]

Peter, you touched a nerve. Car manufacture is cost driven, a penny saved per car over a million car run is money in the bank. During a model year changes might be saved up and all done at a common time (usually with the next model year) if the problems were not safety issues. If the changes did not affect the plant that assembled the car, as a change in the transmission, then it could be incorporated anytime. The only exception I can remember was a strike at a transmission plant in Germany cut off delivery to Dearborn Mustang plant. A task force was formed and in three days we came up with the changes in sheet metal floor plan to allow use of a different transmission. Major cutouts were done on the floor pan while the car was on the assembly line. We were up an running in less than five days and the nonsense went on for three months.

What I never understood what how it cost my suppliers or my company assembly line 35 cents to add a jumper wire in labor and material but if a change came through later eliminating the part, I could only get a 20 cent cost save!

The assembly plants find old parts that have been superceded by new designs during the model year and these floor sweepings are thrown into the line at the end of the model year production. I ordered a pickup truck at year end and paid extra for heavy duty springs. A few years later the dealer casually mentioned that it was strange that I only had heavy duty springs on the front and not the rear !

One reason that early level parts show up on later production rifles is due to FIFO (first in and first out). New parts are thrown into the box and removed leaving the older ones, untouched, in the bottom of the barrel.

[5thBatt]

Two very important words are included in the LoC of 1916..."may embody"
You will notice them in part 1 & part 2
This means a MkIII or a MkIII* "may embody" the changes listed in 1a, 1b, 1c & 1d & that a MkIII or a MkIII* can be without the changes listed in 1a, 1b, 1c & 1d
In short a MkIII* made after this date can have Volleysights, windage, etc & still pass inspection, how many (or if any) did is something we will probably never know for sure, but i'm sure this was included in the LoC so the older parts could be used up & not slow down production.

Ironically the changes to the MkIII listed in part 1 were the changes that were going to be the MkIII* so originally the MkIII* was going to have a cutoff but as it turned out, the only difference between a MkIII & a MkIII* is the presence of the cutoff.

[jmoore]

Of note is that LSA was about the least prolific of the WWI manufacturers. Probably the extra time required for Mk.III (no star) features wasn't their bottleneck in production.

[Father Ted]

Are LSA's any more valueable or collectible for all the reasons above, or are they just another must have in the LE arsenal?