L42/Enforcer Ammunication

[Daan Kemp]

Ah, that explains a lot. Our lot turned out ball and tracer, that's it. If there were wear variations we on the ground never knew and just worked through whatever the store issued. Only those target shooting guys [Bisley] cared which lot numbers were more "accurate". In later years I kept informed about ammo as I was in shooting sports, but in 20 years never found any special consideration was required for any small arms.

[Alan de Enfield]

Pardon me for being confused. It seems that many countries have differently loaded military 7,62 ammunition, which must be an interesting logistical exercise for supplying the front line. Why would you use a different round in practice to what you would use in combat?

Going back to the original question regarding ammunition for the Enforcer and the L42.

These rifles were manufactured, tested and approved when the standard NATO 7.62 was 144/150 grain bullets.

NATO 7.62 has evolved over the years with all sorts of 'specials' including 'hot' rounds and long distance Sniper rounds - even the 'standard' round now has 168/175 gr bullets.

Simply using a heavier bullet can have a large impact on chanber pressures - throw powder changes into the mix and the pressures could be way more than the rifle was designed for.

Its a bit like taking your inline 4 cyliner 1800cc engine out of your family saloon and replacing it with a 6 litre V12 and wondering why things like the gear-box, clutch and brakes are starting to fail as they cannot take the strain.

All 7.62 is not the same, and is not even tested using the same methods or units.

The original 7.62 was the M80 which (particularly in the USA) been replaced by the M118 (and derivatives)

Cartridge, caliber 7.62mm, NATO, ball, special, M118 (United States): 173-grain (11.2 g) 7.62×51mm NATO full metal jacket boat-tail round specifically designed for match purposes. Produced by Lake City Army Ammunition Plant. This is an interim match round which utilized standard M80 ball brass cartridges with the 173-grain (11.2 g) full-metal jacketed ball boat-tailed (FMJBT) bullet and staked No. 34 or No. 36 primers. During this period in the early to late 1980s the performance of the round declined. Powder, primers, and brass were the same as standard ball rounds; bullets and powder charges varied in weight due to worn machinery and poor quality control. Since it could not be called "match" due to its erratic trajectory, it was renamed "special ball". Snipers used to test shoot batches of ammo, find a batch that shot well (or at least consistently), then zeroed their weapon to that batch and tried to procure as much of that ammo as possible.[42]

Linked belts of Lake City 7.62 mm M80 ball ammunition
Cartridge, caliber 7.62mm, NATO, ball, special, M118LR (United States): 175-grain (11.3 g) 7.62×51mm NATO match-grade round specifically designed for long-range sniping. It uses a 175-grain (11.3 g) Sierra Match King hollow point boat-tail bullet. Produced at Lake City Army Ammunition Plant. The propellant's noticeable muzzle flash and temperature sensitivity led to the development of the MK 316 MOD 0 for special operations use.

Most other NATO countries continue to produce 144 / 150 grain ammunition.

Eg The UK :

United Kingdom

Cartridge, ball, L42A1 (United Kingdom): 7.62×51mm ball cartridge, 155-grain (10.0 g) round
Cartridge, ball, L44A1 (United Kingdom): 7.62×51mm ball cartridge, 144-grain (9.3 g) round

Germany
Patrone AB22, 7.62mm × 51, DM41, Weichkern ("soft-core", or "ball"), (West Germany): 7.62×51mm NATO ball cartridge; Berdan primed, copper-washed steel jacket. German equivalent to U.S. 7.62×51mm M80 round. Standard service round for the G3 battle rifle. It has a 3,800-metre (4,156 yd) long dangerous space when fired between a 5° and 10° angle.[25]
Patrone AB22, 7.62mm × 51, DM111, Weichkern, (Germany): 147-grain (9.5 g) 7.62×51mm NATO ball cartridge, cupronickel-coated steel jacket. German equivalent to U.S. M80 round. In service with the German military. Known for severe fragmentation in human tissue due to its thin jacket, particularly around the cannelure.[26] It has a 4,200-metre (4,593 yd) long dangerous space when fired between a 5° and 10° angle.[27]

Extracys from Wikipedia.

[Enfield Enforcer]

Hello altogether,

a lot of reactions - thanks ! Especially to the Advisory Members and the"old members" f.e. Lee-Enfield, Alan de Enfield, Roger Payne, Daan Kemp, Gee-Ram, Bindi2 and more. Now it is getting still more complex, it contains quite a lot of factors and details.. On other sources in the Web, too.
At first for safety purpose 😊 of course :
I think we have to take it step by step, to get an usable overview: To summarize we must say - our Lee-Enfield No.4 Conversion in 7,62 mm Nato will work best with ammo within a pressure of under this 53'000 or 55'000 PSI ? Different information i saw also to that, therefore the ? Of course only with a rifle in good - checked - condition.

As second we can - or must, depending on the ammo availability - reload or give the order to reload to somebody, in my case. The goal then must be to produce loads with military brass - and of course - corresponding bullet- and powder-combinations. As explained for example in S. Redgwells good publication: Reloading of 7,62 mm military Brass: Target Loads. Of course then by always carefully loading step by step for the 27,5-inch Enfield Matchbarrel. With reduced powder charge, not the commercial loads.
And then it s h o u l d be possible to reload even with 168 or 175 gr-Bullets to reach a high crosswind resistence - and - a range of 700 Meters ca. at the same time.

Greetings Enfield Enforcer

[Alan de Enfield]

Greetings Enfield Enforcer

I'm very interested to see the picture in your avatar.

It is my picture of my Enforcer No 134.



Another picture by the same window.

[Bruce_in_Oz]

The limiting factors in the use of "heavier" bullets are muzzle velocity and bullet length.

7.62 NATO was developed around that 144-150gn bullet concept (including a boat-tail) in order to maintain some pretense to .30-06 performance.

It was also specified that the rifling be 1:12" twist, which was a slower twist than .30-06, but at 7.62 NAT muzzle velocities, worked fine with those bullets out of 19" (G3) to 24" (L1A1) barrels. It would stabilize LONGER bullets like tracers and some "match" bullets, bur there were and remain, practical limits.

In "service" rifles and machine-guns, overall cartridge length is absolutely limited, both "high' and "low" in order to work in ALL issued magazine rifles and machine-guns.

Setting a longer bullet back into the case reduces powder capacity. Fooling around with a different propellant can produce "interesting issues with gas systems. Remember, the whole idea was that ammo from Country "X" was to work under all service conditions, in small arms from countries A to Z.

In actual 7.62 NATO-calibre service rifles none but the most optimistic expected the boots on the ground to be expending ammo on live targets over 600 metres away. Machine-guns, on tripods, yes, Private Bloggs with his L1A1, not so much.

If you start fooling with exotic bullets and "slow" powders, you can expect "interesting things" to start happening to gas systems, etc. and then there is the issue of "sight calibration" in iron-sighted battle rifles. If your environment suddenly become "target rich" but they are over a Kilometer away, that's what mortars and quad .50's are for.

Snipers are a bit different, but MOST countries were not likely to send them into the weeds to nail targets at ludicrous distances with battle-rifle ammo. .50BMG, .408 Cheytac, .338 Lapua etc are in a whole different category. And if you have ever hefted one of those beasties, you may appreciate the utter specialization of their deployment.

Also, if you go for a "super-slinky" bullet of the "nominated" NATO weight,and maintain cartridge overall length, accounting for the loss of propellant space, can you drive it fast enough to stabilize without over-stressing the rifle?

If you cannot achieve stability at safe pressured in a 1:12" NATO-standard barrel, do you go back to the old .30-06 1:10" "standard"? Such an arrangement of new ammo and new barrels will absolutely guarantee the need to completely rewrite all the range tables and the re-calibration or replacement of ALL the sighting systems in the inventory.

The L42A1 worked, and continues to work, but only if handled correctly, maintained correctly and fed the correct ammo...Until the barrel "goes bad" or the bedding goes wonky. They are "Peak 19th Century Technology"; works of the artisans.

Modern, modular "chassis" rifles are, firstly, NEW and not "pre-loved". Their very modularity increases their versatility and minimizes "down-time". They might not look like "olde-worlde' works of art, but they are not meant to be seen and admired by anyone other than the appointed operators and maintenance crews.

It is interesting to compare the L42A1 with its Finn counterpart, the TKIV, built on century-old Mosin Nagant actions. A VERY similar concept. (Just about all phased out of active serve, now, however).

[Surpmil]

Hello altogether,

a lot of reactions - thanks ! Especially to the Advisory Members and the"old members" f.e. Lee-Enfield, Alan de Enfield, Roger Payne, Daan Kemp, Gee-Ram, Bindi2 and more. Now it is getting still more complex, it contains quite a lot of factors and details.. On other sources in the Web, too.
At first for safety purpose 😊 of course :
I think we have to take it step by step, to get an usable overview: To summarize we must say - our Lee-Enfield No.4 Conversion in 7,62 mm Nato will work best with ammo within a pressure of under this 53'000 or 55'000 PSI ? Different information i saw also to that, therefore the ? Of course only with a rifle in good - checked - condition.

As second we can - or must, depending on the ammo availability - reload or give the order to reload to somebody, in my case. The goal then must be to produce loads with military brass - and of course - corresponding bullet- and powder-combinations. As explained for example in S. Redgwells good publication: Reloading of 7,62 mm military Brass: Target Loads. Of course then by always carefully loading step by step for the 27,5-inch Enfield Matchbarrel. With reduced powder charge, not the commercial loads.
And then it s h o u l d be possible to reload even with 168 or 175 gr-Bullets to reach a high crosswind resistence - and - a range of 700 Meters ca. at the same time.

Greetings Enfield Enforcer

it may have been said already, and hopefully is not an insult(!), but to avoid all risk of damage to the rifle, ensure the chamber is completely free of oil & moisture and the same with the ammo.

[Enfield Enforcer]

Hello Alan de Enfield,

I'm a bit surprised to read this here... Because I'm not sure where I found this picture, originally. Therefore the same goes for the copyright-remark. It's some years ago, in any case. Sometimes we saw a copyright information resp. ban during the search, but sometimes not.

Be assured, it's not my intention to break this right. I will therefore replace my avatar with another similar picture, later. Thanks.

Best regards
Enfield Enforcer

[Enfield Enforcer]

Hello, concerning this pressure question: my Enforcer has the 19t-Proofmark. To which pressures we may load now, concrete ? I saw different infos, it is really irritating.. .

Thanks.

Best regards
Enfield Enforcer

[Alan de Enfield]

Hello, concerning this pressure question: my Enforcer has the 19t-Proofmark. To which pressures we may load now, concrete ? I saw different infos, it is really irritating.. .

Thanks.

Best regards
Enfield Enforcer

With 19T proof testing you should only use the original NATO 144 grain - 155grain ammunition.
If you want to use other 7.62 then you should have the rifle re-prooved to 21 tonnes.


NRA Safety Notice re No 4 7.62mm Conversions
This is the current stance of the NRA safety warning which first appeared in the Summer NRA Journal:
Safety Notice
Enfield No 4 Rifle Conversions to 7.62mm

A safety warning concerning the use of Enfield No 4 Rifle actions converted to 7.62mm was published in the Summer 2010 Journal.

After further consideration of all factors influencing safety of these conversions and consultation with the Birmingham Proof Master, the following advice must be adhered to in respect of the use of Enfield No 4 conversions:

• Owners of Enfield No 4 actioned rifles converted to 7.62mm currently proofed to 19 tons per square inch are strongly advised to have them re-proofed to the current CIP standard (requiring a minimum mean proof pressure of 5190 bar) which allows the use of CIP approved ammunition with a Maximum Average Working Pressure (MAWP) of 4150 Bar.
• Conversions retaining their original Enfield barrel or a replacement barrel as manufactured by RSAF Enfield are safe to use with commercial CIP approved ammunition, which complies with a MAWP of 4150 bar, loaded with any weight of bullet, providing they carry a valid proof mark, and are still in the same condition as when submitted for proof.
• Conversions fitted with any other make of barrel (such as Ferlach, Maddco, Krieger etc) should be checked by a competent gunsmith to determine the throat diameter of the chamber/barrel fitted before use.
• Conversions where the throat diameter is less than the CIP specification of 0.311” but not smaller than 0.3085” must not be used with ammunition which exceeds 3650 Bar MAWP when fired in a SAAMI/CIP pressure barrel.
• Conversions which have been checked and found to comply with Rule 150 may safely be used with any ammunition supplied by the NRA including the 155 grain Radway Green Cartridge, 155 grain RUAG Cartridge or any other commercial CIP Approved cartridges loaded with bullets of any weight provided that the ammunition pressure does not exceed 3650 Bar when measured in a CIP standard barrel.
• Owners of Enfield No 4 actioned rifles converted to 7.62mm who are uncertain as to the proof status of the rifle should have it checked by a competent gunsmith.
• Owners of Enfield No 4 actioned rifles in any calibre are strongly advised not to use them in wet weather or without removing all traces of oil from action and chamber prior to shooting.
• Enfield No 4 rifles which are fitted with a barrel which has a throat diameter less than 0.3085” must not be used on Bisley Ranges.
• Ammunition loaded with bullets of any weight which are of greater diameter than the throat diameter of the barrel must not under any circumstances be used on Bisley Ranges in any rifle or barrel of any manufacture.

[Enfield Enforcer]

Thanks Alan de Enfield,

I understand the meaning, of course - unfortunately there is no possibility here in Switzerland for doing this. At least as far as i know. Probably its only in Germany possible.. . If anything..

If i understand that correct, its in this case - nearly - impossible to load safe ammo with bullets heavier than 155 gr..?

I found different earlier posts, in one the try was do define this psi-pressure level of the 19t-proofed Lee-Enfields. The calculation was the following one under the Thread More Bad Press for the Enfield:

Quote Originally Posted by Edward Horton View Post
Slamfire1 and forum members

The 19 tsi for the 7.62 No.4 Enfields equals 19 x 2040 = 38,760 + 20% = 46,512 .

.
Ed - a slight mathematical error
A ton is 2240 lbs (and not 2040), so 19 X 2240 + 20% = 51072


This 51072 will be the CUP-level, I suppose ? I will have to let produce reloads - probably in any case - it would be essential to know the PSI-level, coming from this 51072-pressure-Info. As with the cases.. .

The same goes for reloading-infos. They are even under PM still really very welcome :-) It should be able to get velocity-measurements, i will mention them of course.

Surpmil: you wrote your last posting in a very kind way. ;-) Yes, i will do what you mention there - be assured.

Bindi2, Bruce of Oz: the Enforcer Serial No. 171 will not be cracked because of a too strong load :-) I don't wan't to kill my rarities. Why should I ?..

Many thanks !
Greetings
Enfield Enforcer