1888 Commision Rifle

[ldpfeifer]

Some of the pictures of the chamber cast I did. I also removed the barrel with very little trouble.
Some measurements of the casting -VS- 8mm cartridge....
BASE Cast .421 8mm .465
Shoulder before angle Cast .348 8mm .426
Length of cartridge Cast 1.822 8mm 1.852
Middle picture is bottom 30-30, casting, and AK round. Any more ideas on this thing????
Lyle

[Patrick Chadwick]

Very odd. The chamber casting does not go deep enough - it needs to go right up to the start of rifling. What is there indicates an almost neckless case that looks similar in style to an 32-40 or the German 8,15x46R. Both rimmed cases for target shooting. Both capable of high accuracy. The ring on the casting may be just the transition from case body to neck.

Some dimensions in inches:
Dimension Casting 32-40 8,15x46R
Base diameter,,0.421 ,,,,, 0.424 ,,,,, 0.421
Length to start of neck (there is no real shoulder on the 32-40)
------------------ 1.822 ,,,, 1.645 ,,,, 1.115 (start) 1.335 (end)
Neck diameter, 0.348 ,,,,, 0.346 ,,,, 0.346
Case length ,,,,,,,??? ,,,,,, 2.13 ,,,,, 1.82

From the lack of a real shoulder, it looks more like a 32-40 than anything else I have. But it might be a "home-brew". Note that the barrel was easily removed (suspicious!) and the protruding ring at the breech end has been filed down to allow the extractor to hook over the rim. It does not look like professional gunsmith work to me, and not done in Germany either, as the law requires reproofing and stamping with the correct chambering designation after a conversion. Do not go by the markings on the barrel, which may no longer apply.

I think we need another, longer and more exact chamber casting going right up to the start of the rifling and showing the base/start of rim. And yes, gew8805 is quite right. In this case the whole assembly should be looked at by a professional gunsmith.

[Patrick Chadwick]

And definitely done in Europe.

On this point, I respectfully disagree. In countries that require proofing of firearms - which for the last century or more means probably every country in Europe with commercial arms production - rechambering invalidates proof and a new proof is mandatory. See Wirnsberger "The Standard Directory of Proof Marks". The land of unproofed wildcat conversions is quite clearly located somewhat further out to the West.

[RCS]

I believe your rifle is chambered for the 8.15x46R mm target cartridge (would also explain the rear sight too). Years ago I loaded this cartridge for a single shot Schuetzen rifle, I used Remington 30-30 cases in RCBS dies, the rim diameter and the case length also had to be reduced. Only lead bullets were used, there are variations in the bore diameters.

There were some bolt action military rifles also chambered for the 8.15x46Rmm too as I have seen Mauser 98's but never a Model 88. These rifles use a bullet with a jacket which you would never consider for the older single shot rifles. Photos show some post war cartridges produced for the modern 8.15x46mm riflesAttachment 43806

[ldpfeifer]

I am pretty sure this was done somewhere in Europe as my uncle was in a mechanized unit that came along after the battles and either they got the stuff running again or they destroyed it. He sent home a couple of Mausers, this gun, a half of parachute, and some nice German optic made binoculars. This gun was sitting in a closet in our old farm house in Eastern Washington state since the war. It was moved to my fathers house in the late 70's and was packed with grease since before it was sent home until February of this year. If the barrel was change out, it most likely was done somewhere before WW2. I had PB blaster sitting in the chamber for the last 10 days and noticed a small weep around the barrel area. The threads were the same as the original if it was made for it. I just put a little pressure on the barrel with a pipe wrench and held the chamber flat with my hand on a block of wood so as not to put any pressure on the trigger and it turned.
I am working on a deeper chamber cast but the first couple of ties got stuck beyond the chamber area as I must have set my patches to deep into the rifling, or a stuck casing????
Lyle

[ldpfeifer]

Here is the latest casting of the chamber. I had a hard time as if I went to deep, it would not come out. I put a mark by what appears to be the top of the casting as the rifling starts just about the ring on the casting, you can see the start of it if you look close. I took a file to the breach area of the barrel. There is a definite ring around it as can be seen in the pictures, but the material in there is steel. I am trying to contact a gun smith. Any ideas now???
Lyle

[Patrick Chadwick]

I cannot find any 7.7mm rifle chambering other than the British and Japanese cartridges, both of which have a clearly defined shoulder. The breech face shows saw or file marks, the extractor cutaway is crude, and the chamber casting shows odd ripples. The measurements are vaguely in the area of an 8.15x46R. Furthermore, 7.7mm land (NOT groove) diameter and 6 grooves would also be OK for an 8.15x46R

As before, I think it should be handled with extreme caution.

Studying Wirnsberger again (German section), I now interpret the barrel markings as follows:
7,7m/m = land diameter
46 = cartridge length in mm
So it does seem to be an (nominal) 8.15x46 chambering.
3.30 ought to be the powder charge in grams. BUT the powder type and quantity is not specified, UNLESS it is indicated by the 679. No indication of bullet weight.
And where is the proper proof mark?
All not very satisfactory!

E.v.N. could indicate either the owner or the gunsmith that did the conversion (E... von N...)
I have no explanation for the "O".

[Patrick Chadwick]

I vote for a post military, one off, target rifle. And definitely done in Europe.

I think you may well be right, after all. But the tatty breech face and chamber profile bother me.

[ldpfeifer]

I took a file and just slightly drug it across the face of the chamber and it created what looks like a ring in the chamber. I took a piece of wire with a hook on it and could not feel anything like a stuck cartridge. I can put a Remington 8mm round into the bolt face and extractor, it fits perfect. A local guy told me his dad said when they would come by a town they took over the guns would be piled up in a stack and ammunition and bolts were in another pile. It may be my uncle picked up the only non 8mm gun there and a bolt for a 8mm?? The gun serial numbers all match except the barrel has been change out and the bolt is about 1700 numbers later. I am trying to get in touch with a local retired gun smith to see if he has any ideas on this thing. Does anyone know if a 32-40 and the 8.15x46R are the same case and die? Thanks again to all.
Lyle

[RCS]

I use to load 8,15x46R mm or 7,7x46R mm. I used 30-30 Remington cartridge cases, I had to reduced the outside rim diameter (used a lathe) and had to reduce the total length. I used RCBS loading dies. I loaded these cartridges for a German single shot underlever rifle with double set triggers and only used lead bullets.

I also load 32-40 Winchester for a heavy barrel Winchester Hi-Wall rifle with double set triggers.

The 32-40 Winchester cartridge will not chamber into a 7,7 or 8,15 x46 R mm chamber as the case is too long and the rim is too large