Confusing Enfield No4 Mk 1 (T) markings and look

[zak2013]

Hi Bought what I thought was a bog standard No4 Mk 1. Upon close inspection found the following marks and items:
BSA Shirley plant M47C on left side of BUTT SOCKET 1944 and serial no. 1477 (?)
No pads but the 5 holes are visible but have been blanked off with screws ground down to the surface,
Plus Bolt NO7 MKII
Has ‘TR’ stamped on the left of the butt socket and a letter ‘T’ on the flat of the left receiver sidewall
(The ‘T’ signified a No.32 telescope had been fitted, and the combination met all inspections. Without a ‘T’ marking, the rifle could not have been converted at Holland and Holland)
“a ¼ inch ‘S51’ stamped on the bottom of the handgrip of the butt stock”. Mine does not have this. Wood base near butt clamp has TG or T6 stamped with ordinance arrow instead.
“a stamped telescope number on the front edge of the butt, just before butt socket” .is missing.
Front right side of the receiver just behind the receiver ring. (“A genuine Holland and Holland conversion will have a 1/8 inch letter ‘S’ close to the wood line)”. It has this S mark.
“rifles made in ’43 and ‘44 should have a MK2 scope” It does not have a scope.
Sight no7 (or N67) mkII. With F stamped on several parts (Fazakerley?) but battle sight has not been milled off.
Barrel has “Regulated by Fulton” stamped on it. Still has bayonet lugs on it.
Has 3rd angular swivel with long shank marked Parker Hale Made in England in front of the magazine.
Does not have cheek piece fitted but feint marks 1 inch down left side and 3 inches apart could be infills. All furniture is dark walnut.
Any ideas of the history of this rifle? Should I continue to shoot it (very accurate even without scope)? Im not sure what I have here. It appears to be a mixture of genuine No4 (T) action and standard woodwork with an original sight for period that has not had battle sight removed.Thanks
Paul

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[Roger Payne]

Paul,
Welcome. A picture tells a thousand words, & if you could post a few photo's it would speak volumes. However, I suspect your assessment may be correct. It sounds very much like you have a genuine barrelled action with replacement wood & furniture. However, the serial number is not what I would have expected. Does it look like it may have been restamped? Body pads do turn up periodically (be very wary of buying some of the copies available on 'that auction site'), & whilst not easy to do well, it is probably quite restorable.......
But please, if you can, let us have some pictures - there are lots of people on this site who will then soon be able to tell if it is real or not.

ATB.

[zak2013]

Thanks ATB for replying. I too have suspected the serial number. However, it does not appear to be re-stamped but there are indistinct letters barely visible around the number but by no means part of it. I do have several pictures and once I figure out how to post them (after reducing size) I will.

[ssj]

Is the barrel stamped fultons or the "knox", the front of the receiver the barrel has been screwed into? Ive only ever seen the knox stamped but I learn more every day.

T's were sold for about $40-$45US at one stage if the adverts ive seen are to be believed, so cheap but accurate surplus, it would make sense to convert one to a target gun. Fultons would be a (if not THE) Gunsmith famous for setting up enfields to shoot targets. Their work would be of a very high standard, so holes being filled with screws and filed back in would be consistant with good workmanship IMHO. So lets say it was a genuine T, ended up in Fultons to be setup for a target shooter. If you take the top woods off does it look centre bedded? Any other parts altered? small hole in the trigger or rear of the trigger guard? Are the trigger bumps polished? seer polished? I guess what Im tying to establish is if the only part left is a fulton barrel. If the receiver itself is stamped Fulton, personally I'd pay more for a good gun with that stamp if its all original, but then target guns are my thing. If what Ive seen recently is any fair indication 25% more. I suppose the only Q is does that detract from its T status (it wouldnt for me but collectors are funny ppl). Is the butt stock a non-std length? stamped, say L? maybe it was replaced by the target shooter to suit him, hence no S51 stampings. So need pics....

[Roger Payne]

Paul,
Thanks, I hope you manage to sort out some photo's as it would be nice to see exactly what you have. I have bought a number of 'gutted' & 'targetized' No4 T's over the years & have spent a lot of hours patiently playing about with replacement pads until I got a good fit! For obvious reasons sniper's rifles were a common choice for gunsmiths to turn into target rifles after WW2. I bought a 1945 BSA Shirley some years ago from one of those 'ye olde village gun shoppes' & it still bore the front pad, but the rear had been removed as it fouled the target sight they had fitted. It had also been rebarrelled to 7.62mm. It was a nice challenge, re-converting nicely.

Re your serial number; generally 1944 & 45 dated BSA rifles will have a five digit serial beginning with a 3. Most will have a single letter prefix in front of the number, though the first batch had no letter prefix. During 1943 serials were generally four digit with two letters as a prefix. The first letter was always an A & then they worked through the alphabet with the second letter, eg AA 2345, AB4567, AC7890 etc. By Christmas/New Year 1943/44 as far as I have been able to assess, they'd got to about AV. They may well have made some rifles marked AW & AX as well - I'm not sure on this one, it's entirely possible as there would probably have been several production lines going all at the same time. What I can say is that I have personally owned both 1943 & 1944 dated rifles that bore an AV prefixed four digit number. What I'm trying to say is that you should look closely at your number as if it is a very early 44 rifle it could be correct with a four digit number, & it's possible if you look carefully there might be a couple of letters (eg AV) faintly marked in front of the numbers. Another alternative may simply be that it is a typical 44 rifle & part of the serial is obscured, or as we mentioned earlier it may have been re-stamped. Finally of course, the rifle could be entirely bogus......but I have a feeling when we get to see these pics it may well turn out to be the real deal that is just in need of a lot of love & attention.

If you're going to the 'International' Arms Fair at the National Motorcycle Museum on 22nd September bring it over to my table & I'll have a look FWIW.

ATB.

[Badger]

Thanks ATB for replying. I too have suspected the serial number. However, it does not appear to be re-stamped but there are indistinct letters barely visible around the number but by no means part of it. I do have several pictures and once I figure out how to post them (after reducing size) I will.

If you wish to forward them via email to badger@milsurps.com, I'll resize them and post them for you in this thread ..

Regards,
Doug

[bigduke6]

Just a thought but the serial number if re-done/stamped, rings a bell with Hart and Whitaker rifles that were converted to range rifles/target rifles, maybe this was one that was converted to a target rifle and then converted back to No4 status ? Roger you will remember the one I Purchased from Dave and think that was in the 1400,s or was it 2400, haven't the register to hand but will have a look later.

Pictures tell a thousand words...

[zak2013]

Lots of good replies and info there...thanks. Right here goes with the photo attempts

Theyre showing up so hopefully will pst. I dont have a photo of the "S"on the right but each time I inspect this rifle I find more marks

[bigduke6]

zak2013, Looks the real McCoy (the action) as mentioned in the PM, the resident experts will chime in at some point, just the bruising over the Regulated by Fulton I suspect a new barrel fitted at some point and the original serial Number looks like it has been scrubbed.

You mentioned New woodwork etc in the PM, I would leave as is and just remove the varnish, the rear of the fore-end looks like something has been done (maybe a Fulton or post Fulton thing)?

[zak2013]

Hmmm. What do you mean by serial number looks like it has been scrubbed? My FAC has this number on it now is this illegal?