Bayonet I.D.

[ltc]

Can anyone here id the bayonet in this photo. I was given to me by a the widow of a WWI veteran back in about 1966. I am sure it returned with him after the war.



I have searched for images of it on the net without luck. Who can help.

LTC

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[browningautorifle]

BAyonet Collection Presentation Carl has them here. This one's an Ersatz blade. Quite common at one time...Turkish maybe??? Anyway, have a look at Carl's site. It's there.

[Calif-Steve]

Look very carefully for half-moon stamps. Turk Army. Made 1917/18 and issued by Germans and indeed used in combat in WWI.

[gew8805]

You have a German - not Turkish - ersatz bayonet, it is known as "Carter #48" by collectors, it appears under that number in Carter's standard reference works on German Bayonets. It is not a rare ersatz bayonet but is far from common.

The ersatz bayonets are early war projects and by 1917 had largely become superfluous to German needs (though some remained on issue until 1918) and many were sent as aid to their Turkish allies. Many came out of Turkey in the imports by Navy Arms in the late 1990s. Many of those imported at that time had been shortened and had their cross guards modified by the Turks in the 1930s. However, with it's provenance, it is doubtful that yours ever went to the Turks. You have a very nice example with both scabbard and frog.

[browningautorifle]

Yes, it's German. Maybe sent to the Turks for lend lease. They went everywhere and were used to some extent in WW2. It doesn't have much provenance...you assume a great deal. If you look at Carl's website you'll see where the REAL info comes from. If the OP ever gives us detailed pics, we may be able to give him comprehensive info. Otherwise...we're ALL guessing. Stories are just that.

[Aragorn243]

The provenance is that it was brought back by a WWI vet. An American vet would not likely have access to a Turkish bayonet. It is true that all this is speculation but odds are it never saw Turkish service.

[browningautorifle]

Probably, maybe, odds are...

[Calif-Steve]

Very hard to know anything. I have several of these and all are Turk Army. The amount of equipment made and lost in WWI is hard to believe. Russians still finding WWI stuff from Tannenberg Battlefield. This one could well be a WWI VBB or not. No way to tell.

[gew8805]

Yes, it's German. Maybe sent to the Turks for lend lease. They went everywhere and were used to some extent in WW2. It doesn't have much provenance...you assume a great deal.

I assume nothing, I am simply going by what the owner, ltc - the OP - said. If he is mistaken, well... That being said, there is no reason to think that he is not telling us the truth when he says "It was given to me by a the widow of a WWI veteran back in about 1966." In 1966, the Turk bayonets were few and far between in this country, they were held in stock until purchased by Val Forgett and his people at Navy Arms for import back in the late 1990s. But bring-backs in possession of WW1 vets were fairly common, if often unappreciated, less than 50 years after that war. Looking at war period photos of Turkish troops, Imperial German frogs were seen on the German bayonets sent to Turkey, but few came to this country with them in the '90s, most I have seen are on "bring-backs".

If you look at Carl's website you'll see where the REAL info comes from. If the OP ever gives us detailed pics, we may be able to give him comprehensive info. Otherwise...we're ALL guessing. Stories are just that.

Carl has an excellent and informative website, but my information on Imperial German bayonets comes from the same sources as his - Anthony Carter and his books on Imperial German bayonets filled with Mr. Carter's scholarly research done over many years. Also from 30 years of observing and collecting Imperial bayonets myself. I don't know it all, far from it, but I do know a fair amount or know where to find the information.

All that being said, I did mis-number this bayonet, it is Carter's #47, not #48. My typing is not what it should be.

Maybe ltc will show us more photos of details, they would be appreciated and enjoyed by all. Indications of Turkish use, if any, would be limited to numbers, either western or Turkic, heavily stamped into the cross guard. Crescent moons or other Turkish property marks are rarely if ever seen on German ersatz bayonets used by the Turks. And yes, I looked through literally hundreds of them in Navy Arms/Gibbs warehouse in West Virginia when they first imported the Turkish used bayonets and rifles.

Jim, you may want to do some research, find Carter's German Bayonets Volume III, it is the best out there on the subject.

[browningautorifle]

I don't really need to research anything. The only thing I didn't say in my original answer was German made Ersatz, possibly Turk issue. I DO know it's German made...and don't really care about the rest of this...without the pics I already asked for, we're all guessing...