New to me Martini Enfield - lots to learn!

[radio_silence]

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I bought this carbine as never fired by previous owner, lurked online for about two weeks and had my 80 yr old mentor look it over for me. (He's a big Martini enthusiast)

After looking it over silently for at least 5 minutes, he says " It's not a Khyber pass, but there are several unusual things."
Among other things, he pointed out the small thumb rest, hand tooled cocking indicator, and unusual crown. Sorry, no picture of crown or front sight.

In my pictures, I tried to show several things

The left side of the action. There is a faint logo of demon (with horns and tail) waving a pitchfork, standing on grass or flame
Left of logo word is DEMON, right of logo is STEEL
Next line is MGC
Next line is B
Next line is 313

Right side of action is blank, note hand tooled cocking indicator

Underside of action has 434 stamped ahead of trigger guard
Tried to show temper/case hardening colouration on lever topside (stamped with a T or E and what is possibly possibly an O)
Trigger is grooved

Breach and block have matching proof marks
Slugged crown end of barrel and it miked out to. 310 at the farthest point (lands?)

I test fired four factory surplus rounds from it, each with differing headstamps
First from a distance, three more from the shoulder
Trigger was stiffer than my Swede mauser
Second round from shoulder failed to fire
First round ejected easily, second and fourth with considerable effort
My mentor says headspace is out; get barrel or block tweaked by smith

I trolled around online, bought a breach cleaning kit and scrubbed out the breach, hand loaded three rounds and tried it again
All three rounds failed to ignite - I assume the firing pin isn't striking primer hard enough

I guess next step is disassemble and clean - how much time should I budget?

My mentor guessed carbine's age at 110-113
Trolling online, my best guess is that MGC stands for midlands gun co, and that B is relevant to being unfit for military service, or a model #

Any info or informed guesses about this Martini would be appreciated
Enjoy the pix

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Patrick Chadwick]

I guess next step is disassemble and clean - how much time should I budget?

An entire afternoon, because...

All three rounds failed to ignite - I assume the firing pin isn't striking primer hard enough

... if your Martini is like mine, when I bought it, then the block may be full of fossilized grease that is acting like a hydraulic brake on the firing pin AND stopping the pin going forwards sufficiently to really dent the primer (gunge in firing pin hole in the block).
Dismantle, wash out with turps substitute or whatever you find suitable, clean, grease lightly, reassemble, test fire.
The firing pin will probably have a much sharper "snap" to it.
And use good cartridges, not some leftovers of uncertain provenance. You may be partially blaming the rifle for cartridge defects.

Likewise, part of the difficulty with the cartridges may be a build up of muck on the recess that takes the rim.

My mentor says headspace is out; get barrel or block tweaked by smith

Not before you have dismantled, cleaned, reassembled and retested. All too often the word "headspace" is bandied around as a magic word to show the speaker's deep knowledge. I suspect that it is often the reverse. I have lost count of the number of old service rifles that I have test fired, cleaned, and fired again, but it could well run into 3-figures. Sufficient to permit the generalization that in most cases the problems are dirt and corrosion. followed by worn strikers and weak springs.

For rimmed cartridges, headspace can hardly become large enough to prevent ignition, whatever effect it might have on the brass. Even for rimless cases, on most milsurps the extractor will hold the case back sufficiently to permit ignition.

If the cases show stress symptoms in the brass, then you might think about headspace. Otherwise, forget it for the moment.

So, just dismantle, clean, lubricate, reassemble, and test again.

And tell us the result!

[Patrick Chadwick]

my best guess is that MGC stands for midlands gun co

Yes. Midlands Gun Company, Bath St. Birmingham 1888 -1956 (absorbed by Parker-Hale Ltd).
The Bath St factory was known as the Demon Gun & Gun Barrel Works, hence the demon logo.

[radio_silence]

Thanks Patrick,
Looking forward to the tear down
Would this martini (like all) would have had military origin and been sporterized by MGC?

[Patrick Chadwick]

I would expect a military Martini to have a crossed pennants acceptance mark on the receiver, at top left of the left side and on the barrel knox form. Since marks on the receiver are often worn away, remove the handguard and take a look at the barrel. No acceptance mark = not military.

Furthermore, the right side of the receiver would be marked with the crown, Martini Enfield, MK number, and the lock viewer's mark. None of these is visible in the photos (although it is theoretically possible that markings have been scrubbed.

Finally, a rifle that had been in British service and then taken out of service would bear the mark that looks like an asterisk, but is in fact 2 WD arrows back-to-back.**

In short, I see no evidence that this rifle was ever a military rifle.

**And would be subjected to civilian proof before being released onto the civilian market.

[radio_silence]

Its been a fun evening, resulting in no joy. The pleasures of mixing metaphors...

Anyway, I watched a couple youtube videos on disassembling martini actions, courtesy postings by gungeek and martini neil.
They made it seem easy and straightforward, which it was.

Knock out split pin, remove screw and knock out cocking indicator.
Disassemble and clean - pieces were very clean to begin with, wiped off excess oil.
Noticed most pieces to be stamped with TD, possibly CD
Even dimantled and re-assembled firing pin part of block.
Reassembly went well, but carbine still goes click, not bang!

Tried rotating lug inside block to give firing pin more snap, but it was not succesful
I was using old brass with a fresh primer. The same piece of brass both times, bence two primer dents.
I notice the dents are off centre, but don't know if its significant

[Patrick Chadwick]

Reassembly went well, but carbine still goes click, not bang!

Maybe it is just a tired spring after all.

I notice the dents are off centre, but don't know if its significant

I would expect the firing pin to remain well centralized on the horizontal axis, regardless of age, unless the block is really worn to a sloppy fit.
But on the vertical axis, wear/crud can cause the block to rise too much/too little on closing. This is the more likely reason for a severely off-centre strike.
It is hard to tell which unless you are very careful when extracting, noting the position of the dent before the case shoots out.
Strike high = wear, strike low = crud build up.

[radio_silence]

Yaay!
I got a stronger spring and it made all the difference.
Primers now go bang, with a nice, deep impression.
I'll assume there is wear, as pin strikes slightly off centre at 12 o clock.

Looking forward to enjoying this martini when the weather warms up

[Patrick Chadwick]

Glad to have been of assistance!

This thread shows - and not for the first time - that those who automatically cry "headspace problem" as an uncritical response to anything and everything that does not function properly are not demonstrating their expertise but, far too often, their ignorance!

---------- Post added at 01:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:29 PM ----------

My mentor says headspace is out; get barrel or block tweaked by smith

Well that was potentially expensive nonsense, wasn't it?

[butlersrangers]

It seems to me that a rifle intended for Berdan Primers should strike the primer slightly off-center (to avoid colliding with the solid anvil in the primer pocket).
It would be interesting to know if 'radio_silences' rifle has Belgian Proof Marks.
I once owned a good quality Belgian made sporter in .577/.450. It was marked the "Mechanical Guns Company" on the left side of the action and had a stylized Bumble-bee logo. The Belgian Proof Marks were evident.