1903a3 smith

[sakorick]

This one says hard to upgrade. Unfortunately the OC cartouche is up side down.....at least it looks like it to me. What say you experts.....has Rick gone over the edge? Regards, Rick.

WWII Smith Corona Model 1903A3 Minty!! : Curios & Relics at GunBroker.com

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[Rick the Librarian]

I'd be willing to bet it was one of those "not issued since rebuild" rifles that was seen through the DCM 50 years ago. I don't see any closeups of SC parts and the finish looks sort of uniform to me.

[sakorick]

I'd be willing to bet it was one of those "not issued since rebuild" rifles that was seen through the DCM 50 years ago. I don't see any closeups of SC parts and the finish looks sort of uniform to me.

I respectfully disagree. The dies were installed in an arbor press and it would have been impossible to insert the die up side down. This is another problem rifle that seem to be growing in numbers. Rick, would you purchase a minty rifle with an up side down cartouche? This is a clear forgery in my view. Buyer beware! Regards, Rick.

[Rick the Librarian]

I wouldn't buy it just for the reason it is a) overpriced b) "underillustrated" c) I suspect the rifle has been overhauled and refinished. I did overlook the "upside down inspection stamp, but would not necessarily rule that out. I have seen a couple of OGs in odd places.

[JGaynor]

Uh are we talking about the same thing here? The ordnance crest (artillery belt, crossed cannon and flaming bomb) might be upside down. I doubt seriously that these stamps were applied using a press or a jig as the locations seem to move all over the place (with the general location) from one rifle to another. Think man with a punch and a hammer. Considering the volume produced pretty easy to get one the wrong way round.

On the other hand I don't see an Ogden Arsenal rebuild or inspection mark (OG) anywhere.
I do see a firing mechanism out of an 03 or maayyyybbbeee a Remington 03-A3.

Final Answer - As RtL states a lightly used rifle that went through a C&R or rebuild and then into grease until sold to its civvie owner. Parts were frequently swapped in C&R or rebuilds.

[sakorick]

I believe the OC canons were applied with an arbor. Impossible to insert upside down. The location is a result of where the stock was positioned under the arbor. Regards, Rick.

[emmagee1917]

Well , it IS up-side-down. I've always heard hand stamped , so stamp was inverted. If you have proof of an arbor being used ( not claiming anything , lots I don't know ) then this rifle was inserted right side up ( vis. left / right ) but fed from the wrong side into said arbor , resulting in the seen condition.

Maybe this was intended for Austrailian LL , and they wanted them to see it better . :>)
Chris

[sakorick]

I'll tell what I absolutely know and then what I assume based on fact. In one of the carbine newsletters there was a picture of a lady at the Inland plant applying the OC stamp using an arbor press. The rifle was resting in a simple jig which would allow for fairly uniform locations of the cartouche.

I cannot believe that there were not standard procedures for all the production facilities using the same procedure(assumption).....it's very fast and very uniform.

I have never seen an up side down OC cartouche on any US property so marked(until now) and I have never heard of one reported being up side down.

I would never consider purchasing a US Property rifle with the final inspection cartouche up side down as I would assume the stamp is a forgery. Regards, Rick.

[Rick the Librarian]

The thing is, I would not understand why anyone would fake a OG (not OC) stamp - they just ain't that rare and don't really enhance the value of a rifle, unless the whole stock is faked.

[sakorick]

The thing is, I would not understand why anyone would fake a OG (not OC) stamp - they just ain't that rare and don't really enhance the value of a rifle, unless the whole stock is faked.

I can't answer that. All I know is without a hands on inspection, I would consider the boxed FJA stamp and the OC cartouche as fake. For starters, the only OC cartouche where the belt does not lay on top of the canons is on the Rock-ola carbine stamp which the canons and belt crisscross. If you look carefully at the cartouche in question, not only is it up side down but the canon that crosses from 2 o'clock to 8 o'clock is very odd in that it crosses over the the top of the belt at the 8 o'clock position. I know of no other OC cartouche that does this. The boxed FJA also looks incorrect. Note the space between the F and the JA. I did not see an OG stamp on the very poor pictures. Why would anyone try to embellish any rifle is beyond me......but they are doing it every day and ruining our hobby just to make a common example seem rare or perfect. These people will stop at nothing to make a few hundred dollars. We are now finding hundreds of fake parts on carbines.....especially flip sights that are worth upwards of 500 dollars each.

The K98 Mauser community has been going through this for at least 10 years now....fake forced matched SN's, fake SS marks and skulls. I tend to shy away from any sale of rare collectible private collection stories where the seller show about 4 or 5 terrible pictures, and this one, IMHO, stinks. Regards, Rick.