Reloading BP cartridges (help needed)

[villiers]

Now that I mainly shoot BP, reloading has to be perfected. I´ve got the powder sorted ( Swiss No. 2), got the brass and the correct mould (bullets with a hollow base).

There´s no filler, as I can´t even get the original charge into the case together with the bullet (otherwise it´s be too long and the trapdoor wouldn´t close).

There´s a cork disk over the powder that fits hermetically. I pour a mix of melted candle wax and coconut cooking fat onto a shallow plate and let it set hard in the freezer. The layer is about 1.5mm thick and can be stamped straight into the carttridge and pushed down with a second cork disk. This now looks tidy and works well.

The next step doesn´t, as I can´t get the bullet grooves greased sufficiently except by doing it by hand. A bullet sizer would likely grease the grooves but I don´t want to re-size the bullets that are cast according to the slugged barrel. I´ve tried seating the bullets in liquid grease but it doesn´t adhere to the grooves.

What´s the best way to grease the bullet grooves so that they stay filled? And what´s a good grease mix to use?

Information

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[13Echo]

The powder charge has to be compressed to fit it all in the case. This is usually done with a plug that replaces the seater stem that allows you to compress the powder. To fit a full 70grs of BP into a modern case requires quite a lot of compression. To lube your bullets try pan lubing. It will fill all the grease grooves and not require a lubricator/sizer. The trapdoor does better with the full size diameter and the bullets really don't need sizing. The 405gr hollow base bullet is usually fired without a wad. For the 405gr bullet I usually use a carbine level load of 59grs FFG compressed to allow seating the bullet to get a firm crimp over the base of the bullet's ogive. This seems to work best in my Trapdoor. The compression plugs are available from Buffalo Arms or you can have one made by any competent machinist.

To pan lube: place the bullets in a shallow pan evenly spaced with at lest 5mm between bullets. Warm the bullets with a hair dryer before pouring in the lube so the lube will better adhere to the lead. Melt your lube in a double boiler to keep from overheating the lube and pour it into the pan till all the lube grooves are covered. Let the lube harden and, when the lube pulls away from the edges of the pan, dump the lube cake out on a thick, folded towel. Turn the cake over with the bullet noses pointing up and, with the cake supported by the towel, push on the bullet nose to break it free of the cake. When all the bullets are free push them completely out of the cake and you should have properly lubed bullets. Be sure and use a proper black powder lubricant such as Emmert's or any of numerous other recipes or a commercial lube such as SPG.

Emmert's lube is easy to make and effective. 1750 grs beeswax, 1400grs shortening (unsalted), and 330grs vegetable oil (corn, canola, olive). Some replace half the oil with lanolin. For winter or cold weather more oil may be used.

Jerry Liles

[gsimmons]

Get a sizer die that is the dimension you want the bullet, it'll just takes off the high spots and greases the grooves. I don't know how I did it before the lubrisizer. They really are faster and more consistent.

[Patrick Chadwick]

The layer is about 1.5mm thick and can be stamped straight into the carttridge and pushed down with a second cork disk.

Forget the second cork disk.

It is a waste of material, time and (in the case of your carbine) severely lmited space. IMOH is it ACWOTAM to want to keep grease separate from a greased bullet. The lube will always be forced into the hollow base of the bullet anyway, and there is nothing to be gained by forcing in a wad as well. Somewhere downrange the wad will separate from the bullet, in a totally unpredictable direction, and this will merely add a slight skew to the trajectory.

Remember the basic rule of minimalist engineering: If it's not there, it can't go wrong.
Just seat the bullets straight onto that neat layer of lubricant shown in your photo! Or fill the base of the bullet with lube.

[villiers]

@ gsimmons: Yes ... I used an old cartridge to punch out the bullets from the grease. But they still came out pristine with no grease in the cannelures.
@ 13Echo: I use an expander die to compress the powder. But it only goes down a bit less than a mm (these are not rifle size cases. They´re large pistol size). I´ll try the beeswax mix as I think it might stick better. And also pouring the mix over warmed bullets (previously, I did it the other way around). Have tried to get beef lard here (is this shortening?), so I used coconut fat. The commercial lubricant here´s for sizing. Can it be melted to pour over the bullets?

Patrick, The BP gurus here warned me NOT to let the grease get to the base of the bullet. I´ll have to experiment with the top disk and without.

Thanks for all your help. Without it, I wouldn´t have dared start out on the BP/Werder project.

[13Echo]

Shortening is hydrogenated vegetable oil, a soft, white solid like lard. If you fill the base of the bullet with lube then you must have a wad between the bullet and the powder otherwise the lube may contaminate the powder and the round might not go bang when you pull the trigger.

To get a decent powder charge in your case you will need a compression die or a plug made for your dies. They are available from Buffalo Arms and, I suspect, there will be someone where you live that could make one. Just need a lathe. IF you try to compress the charge when you seat the bullet you will only distort the bullet. Some loaders use a bullet cast from the mould out of a very hard alloy such as linotype to compress the charge with the seater die and then seat the bullet. This works if you aren't depending on neck tension to hold the bullet in place, or you could make the hard bullet and reduce it's diameter .002 to .003" so it isn't gripped by the case neck or turn a bullet shaped piece of steel or aluminum or brass to fit the seater stem and do the same thing. Several ways to skin this cat.

You may also need an expander plug for the case neck to account for the usually larger diameter of the cast lead bullet. For my Trapdoor the expander plug is a two diameter affair with the main part at 0.459" and the second part at 0.462". This allows a firm grip in the neck of the 0.460" diameter bullet with the first millimeter or two of the neck expanded just enough to start the bullet and keep from shaving lead as it is seated.

My process is to size the cleaned brass and expand then tumble to remove the case lube. Prime. Measure the powder charge and fill the case using a drop tube to get all the charge in the case. Compress the charge enough so I can seat the bullet to the proper depth without trying to compress the powder with the bullet. The base of the bullet should just touch the powder charge. For the Springfield 405gr bullet I seat it so I can put a crimp over the beginning of the ogive. The crimp seems to help accuracy in this rifle, apparently it retards bullet start till enough pressure has built to insure obturation of the bore by the bullet especially if using the carbine level load. For the 500 gr 1881 bullet the crimp doesn't seem as necessary when using a full 70 gr charge but it goes over the front band. The 405gr bullet is loaded without a wad or with a single wax paper wad, the 500 gr bullet gets a card wad with a newspaper wad between it and the base of the bullet. All bullet bases ware wiped clean of any lube before loading.

This works for me and has worked in other Trapdoors I've tried it in and is essentially the way worked out by Spence Wolfe and pretty much recreates the original government loads.

Jerry Liles

[OLDER THEN DIRT]

Why don`t you just shoot smokeless in the TD & be done with it. That`s what I do & no problems.

[jmoore]

Villiers, are you still working up loads for the Werder carbine or is this for another rifle?

I don't know if Lee Liquid Alox is available in Germany, but it seems to add stickiness to beeswax. Probably doesn't need to be 50/50 as is common for smokeless loads, and traditionally some sort of softer lube is used for BP, adding lard or shortening might help. Even Vaseline/mineral jelly, maybe? Beeswax doesn't seem to stick well until it's completely cooled, but applying it i the cooled state doesn't do well either. Either tuble coat the bullets or do the cookie cutter trick after letting the mix cool all the way. The lubesizer might be problematic with your odd size projectiles, unless you can get one bored out to the desired diameter.

[villiers]

Hensel´s taken so much trouble making me the Werder mould that I don´t really want (or need) a sizer. I realise I´ll have to experiment with cannalure lube and hope that I can get that final problem solved. If the 1869 Bavarians could do it, I should be able to. Hensel´s expander is perfect for compressing the powder. Shooting at 50 metres is better than I expected. Don´t want to take it to the local 100 m range as they charge a packet for damaging the target return apparatus. `Twas useless at 300 m. Couldn´t even hit the target (it´s got a video link that doesn´t show where the round went). Think I´ll have to find an 100m outdoor range where the smoke dissipated quicker but can´t expect too much with my 80 year old eyesight and that short barrel. I the meantime, I´ve found an original Werder tool and the carbine fits an old leg of lamb gun case I also managed to get hold of.

[gsimmons]

I was thinking to use the sizing die in the Lubri-sizer more for greasing the grooves than actually sizing the bullet. I use one for minies with great results.