.38 Webley Mk. IV problem.

[Peter Laidler]

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[Peter Laidler]

Off the subject a bit but safety is not at issue here because one of the mechanical safetys of the revolver/pistol is that it CANNOT fire unless the cylinder stop is engaged with the cylinder. It is only in this position, with the cylinder stop in the frame bridge (the part below the cylinder) protruding upwards, and engaging into the recess in the cylinder that the primer is aligned with the striker. There is a tiny amount of leeway here and this is catered for with a set of gauges called 'the pokering set'.

In short, regardless of the principal problem as pointed out by Patrick, the pistol is 'safe' by definition.

And Patrick is also absolutely correct about the length of throw of the hammer. On single action, (action hand cocked) the pistol fires off the trigger bent of the hammer and the hammer is at full throw. On double action firing (trigger rotates cylinder and fires weapon) the weapon is fired off the spring loaded CATCH, hammer and hammer does not reach full throw.

I hope that this is close enough to the Webley as I have only got a skeletonised Enfield handy to shake up the memory buds on my brain

[WarPig1976]

However, when fired in double action the cylinder does not fully rotate and the firing pin strikes the seam between the primer and the case, and does not fire.?

But the timing is out and it is firing. Just a knats ball hair more and Bionic would have a very bad day. I don't have a Webly so I can't break one down and understand the mechanics fully but I'd start swapping parts...

[Patrick Chadwick]

I hope that this is close enough to the Webley as I have only got a skeletonised Enfield handy to shake up the memory buds on my brain

Thanks Peter. They are the same basic mechanism, which goes way back into the 19th century and the Beaumont-Adams (?). Even in the Colt DA revolvers (from which I got the term "hammer strut" for what you refer to as "catch, hammer", not knowing what to call it!) it is the same principle, although buried in a lot of other gadgetry. See Kuhnhausen "The Colt Double Action Revolvers" Vol I p.94 Fig. 125 and 126 for a good illustration and explanation of the principle of operation. In the case under discussion, Bubba has obviously played around to the extent that one should completely dismantle the revolver and check everything. Bubba has the tendency to file one thing, mess up the gun, then file something else in a disastrous attempt to cure the first bodge, thereby making things even worse.

[Peter Laidler]

Ah, but it's NOT firing War-pig! That is the mechanical safety feature coming into play. Be warned against exchanging parts too because these pistols and the little Enfields were made in the era of fine hand fitting and stoning. With these, and the No8 rifle as I recall, the mere notion of swopping parts was a forlorn hope. If you were allocated a pile of revolvers, you earned you money that week, believe me. Some were good with them, others, like me, were absolute crap! But I persevered and usually eventually got there.

I vividly remember one Mk1* that simply wouldn't, well, it just wouldn't do anything.......... It was taking hours and into the next day to just get it to poker and then something else would fail and then an axis pin wouln't match the cover plate and......and...... Wilf Attrill, our kindly and fatherly old Armourer Sergeant came over and had a chat about it. looked at it, rubbed his chin and scratched his neck. Then he put the frame into the vice, twisted it slightly, pressed down on something and said '......ZF it. Distorted frame'. And that was the end of that.

Incidentally, does anyone still own a 2 groove barrel on their Mk1* Enfield. They were obsolescent and then obsolete by 1962 but we still used to see them for years afterwards.

No....., just fitting new parts was just the start of a long day at the bench

[Paul S.]

As a side note, 25 some odd years ago I had a nice looking, post-war Webley Mk IV that did the same thing. I couldn't find a new pawl and a gunsmith offered to make one if I left it with him for a month. The month came and went, I go back to see how we were going only to be told that the gun had grown legs when he had the shop re-painted.

Oh, he replaced it alright - with one he owned with a lovely "WAR FINISH" stamping along the frame.


Coincidence? We wonder, don't we?

[WarPig1976]

Notice first he says it's happening in DA then he changes it to it happening in SA. How can the pawl be too short in SA but not in DA if it rides higher in SA?
After looking at schematics for the VI I ask myself how can the hammer fall and strike between the primer and case "in either action" without the cylinder being locked in place by the cylinder catch and most important the cylinder lock on the trigger engaged. I know it can't but that's what BIO said. If that's happening NO the gun is not safe.

Does the pawl complete the cylinder rotation just before the hammer falls? If so and BIO's hammer is dropping before that I'd say its a sear issue be it the DA hammer catch or if in SA the cocking notch/sear on the hammer. Because if the hammer drops before the pawl can complete rotation then the pawls not to short.

I'm not arguing, I'm discussing...

[Patrick Chadwick]

Notice first he says it's happening in DA then he changes it to it happening in SA. How can the pawl be too short in SA but not in DA if it rides higher in SA? After looking at schematics for the VI I ask myself how can the hammer fall and strike between the primer and case "in either action" without the cylinder being locked in place by the cylinder catch and most important the cylinder lock on the trigger engaged. I know it can't but that's what BIO said. If that's happening NO the gun is not safe. Does the pawl complete the cylinder rotation just before the hammer falls? If so and BIO's hammer is dropping before that I'd say its a sear issue be it the DA hammer catch or if in SA the cocking notch/sear on the hammer. Because if the hammer drops before the pawl can complete rotation then the pawls not to short. I'm not arguing, I'm discussing...

In short, you are as puzzled as I am. About the only thing of which we can be fairly sure, without actually having the gun in pieces before us, is that it is obviously FUBAR. Hence my comment:

In the case under discussion, Bubba has obviously played around to the extent that one should completely dismantle the revolver and check everything.

[Bionicback321]

First off let me apologize for all the confusion that I caused with my novice description of single action and double action live and learn. The Webley did indeed fire correctly in double action. The cylinder was fully rotated and locked in place and the firing pin struck the primer dead center. Single action was another story. As shown in the photo of the hammer, the sear had been filed on by non other then Bubba himself. I ordered a replacement hammer from our good friends at Numrich for the princely sum of $35 plus shipping. It did not come with the firing pin so I removed it from the original and installed in on the replacement ( I also swapped the hammer catch as it was affecting double action by not allowing the hammer to completely reset ). This Webley Mk IV is now functioning flawlessly in both SA and DA. Thank you all for your input and gentle guidance.

[WarPig1976]

First off let me apologize for all the confusion that I caused with my novice description of single action and double action live and learn. The Webley did indeed fire correctly in double action. The cylinder was fully rotated and locked in place and the firing pin struck the primer dead center. Single action was another story. As shown in the photo of the hammer, the sear had been filed on by non other then Bubba himself. I ordered a replacement hammer from our good friends at Numrich for the princely sum of $35 plus shipping. It did not come with the firing pin so I removed it from the original and installed in on the replacement ( I also swapped the hammer catch as it was affecting double action by not allowing the hammer to completely reset ). This Webley Mk IV is now functioning flawlessly in both SA and DA. Thank you all for your input and gentle guidance.

Good deal.!! Happy shooting...