Lee Enfield shooting question

[Kiverson]

I already know plenty of information about "ZF" marked rifles by reading Mr. Laidler's contributions on the subject.

My question to you is this: Do any of you out there have a "ZF" marked Enfield, and still shoot it?

Also, do any of you think that an FTR'd rifle exhibiting the dreaded ZF marking is more likely to be shoot-able, due to having been repaired at the factory: a repair an armorer such as Mr. Laidler wasn't able to do, especially in the field.

I want as much personal feedback as possible, as I want to know people's own thoughts on the matter, rather than just the blind thought that ANY ZF rifle is condemned.

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[ssj]

From what I can read its possible a ZF'd gun was sent back to be FTR'd if it was repairable. Ive seen notes that the receivers were welded up and re-machined.

Where is it marked ZF?

What no is the bolt head?

Its also possible that you have a surplus part bought to refurb a gun that was then sold to you as Ive seen an Ishapor with a DP painted forestock that otherwise was fine.

If you have a gun and it looks good, I'd suggest finding a gunsmith who knows Enfields and pointing this out, get it checked.

It would also depend on what the gun was. If it was a T then its valuable as a piece of history and simply keep it as such.

Otherwise Enfields are pretty cheap in the US and there are some mint ones about....

regards

[Son]

I would not shoot a ZF rifle, ever. If someone beside me on the range was using a ZF rifle I would move away.

ZF is ZF. If it had been repaired, part of that repair would have been the removal of of the old classification of ZF.
To the best of my knowledge, the only thing that could be done at the factory that couldn't be done in a workshop (maybe not field, but certainly base) is replace the receiver. This being the principle item, it wasn't available outside the factory. If for some reason the receiver was replaced at the factory, then part of the procedure would have involved removing all ZF markings present.

Find a gunsmith that knows Enfields? Ok... Give him all the details from here about what ZF stamp means then, understanding he does not have the MoD gauging to test the vital areas, ask him for a written and signed appraisal stating the rifle is safe to shoot.
Worst case scenario, it won't make much difference to you, but your widow might be able to sue the pants off him.

Sorry, but for the sake of a couple hundred bucks, is it worth the risk?

Just my 2c as an armourer.

[Peter Laidler]

SSJ, the ONLY place a rifle body was welded was at Field Workshop lever where it was permissable to puddle weld a loose bridge charger guide. And then only using a strict criteria. It's dangerous to suggest otherwise in my opinion. Bodies were NEVER welded up and re-machined. Never, not ever, never. Not even at the magazine stop face or the sear stop.

ZF is the end of the road. If anyone is contemplating using one so marked and seeks the advice of his local gunsmith, then ask him is he has the gauges and equipment that the Base workshops have to gauge and test the rifle body. If he has, then all is well. If he hasn't, then ask him to guaratee, in writing, its safety

[Kiverson]

ZF is ZF. If it had been repaired, part of that repair would have been the removal of of the old classification of ZF.
To the best of my knowledge, the only thing that could be done at the factory that couldn't be done in a workshop (maybe not field, but certainly base) is replace the receiver. This being the principle item, it wasn't available outside the factory. If for some reason the receiver was replaced at the factory, then part of the procedure would have involved removing all ZF markings present.

Find a gunsmith that knows Enfields? Ok... Give him all the details from here about what ZF stamp means then, understanding he does not have the MoD gauging to test the vital areas, ask him for a written and signed appraisal stating the rifle is safe to shoot.
Worst case scenario, it won't make much difference to you, but your widow might be able to sue the pants off him.

Sorry, but for the sake of a couple hundred bucks, is it worth the risk?

Those are exactly my sentiments at this point. I was very stubborn early on to believe the No.4 I wanted could possibly be unsafe: it was just such a sound and solid rifle, with what seems like a very tight lock-up, and the bolt-head track was tight as well.

But no gun is worth rolling the dice for. I'll only live once, and I won't risk being killed at 22 by what I (and my local gunsmith) "thought" was a safe rifle.

[Kiverson]

From what I can read its possible a ZF'd gun was sent back to be FTR'd if it was repairable.

That was always the most perplexing part for me, and I always got stumped...It truly seems logical that a rifle that was ZF'd would possibly been successfully repaired at the factory level. But it's equally logical to assume that if a rifle were un-ZF'd in the record books, that they'd at least scrub the ZF off the stock, so there could be no shadow of a doubt.

My case was a 1944 production Shirley that I wanted: 90% of the enamel remaining, very nicely figured walnut furnature (with the less common grip grooves on the handguard!), all-matching serial numbers, a very smooth and tight action and lock-up, the fine and machined early pattern rear sight, and lastly it didn't have a wobbly safety (which at least half the Enfields I've seen in the states have). Basically, I had found my dream rifle. One bad catch though: the dreaded ZF mark (which I didn't have any knowledge of at the time). The assumption I had was that it having been FTR'd in 1948 would have rectified the issue that got it its ZF stamp. One would think they would have sanded off the marking, or just put a new butt on it. Now the most sensible conclusion, I think, is that whatever caused that rifle to be ZF'd happened after its FTR in 1948.

In short, I'm renewing my search for a rifle the same as what I fell for, minus the ZF.

[Peter Laidler]

Speak to BRian at BDL Ltd in SC and ask if he's got a good BSA made Mk1/2.

Just as a matter of interest,some question why the ZF mark is painted on the butt in big yellow or white or red letters. It's so that it can be seen by everyone who needs to know from the Armourers right back through the Ordnance chain and then the RSSD's and on to the guilloutine or hot axe. The reason why it's not painted on the body is probably because it'd be missed and wend its way back through the system. This is just a guess though. Some say that because it's just the butt or fore-end that painted ZF that it means that the butt or fore-end is scrap. That's patent nonsense.

It is like having a wander through the workshop/Ordnance vehicle park where you'll see lines of hundreds of vehicles and plenty with CAST/BER or CAST/Z painted in yellow on the windscreens. It's not the windscreen that's cast or beyone local or economic repair....., it's the VEHICLE. It'd be no good painting ZF or CAST/Z or BER on the cracked or snapped chassis would it?

[Kiverson]

It is like having a wander through the workshop/Ordnance vehicle park where you'll see lines of hundreds of vehicles and plenty with CAST/BER or CAST/Z painted in yellow on the windscreens. It's not the windscreen that's cast or beyone local or economic repair....., it's the VEHICLE. It'd be no good painting ZF or CAST/Z or BER on the cracked or snapped chassis would it?

That makes total sense. I did check BDL's site, and he does have a few nice No.4s that caught my eye. I think I'll be inquiring more when the funds become more plentiful, and my legal issues buying a firearm are resolved...here in the states: an unpaid traffic ticket categorizes one as a "fugitive of justice" with the FBI, and sales of firearms to that individual are blocked until the issue and inquiry are resolved. This is what happened to me: I was caught speeding by a traffic camera outside my home state, and now I pay the consequences of not being able to buy a rifle.