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Further useful bit of info about the L42 replacement trials that we've discussed above. Learned today that ALL of the rifles on the trial passed the specified accuracy test. But I suppose that they would otherwise there'd be no point in submitting one if it didn't. I say ALL passed, that is except one, the SSG but this was due to a fault on the one particular rifle. But the trials team Armourer (Taff XXXXX) was not permitted to fix faults. However, the SSG on trial was a used one and the wrong rifle was submitted. Fault was really a simple admin error that was replaced and all was well.
There was NO suitable grat pattern for the S&B scope and it was Peter Sarony who had the accepted crosswire and post made up by S&B, at his own expense apparently, and put forwards for the trial together with the modified drums that we all know today
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01-16-2014 03:03 PM
# ADS
Friends and Sponsors
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Contributing Member
So thats him fixed still smiling on his yacht somewhere in the sun, counting his pennies for a gamble that paid off then?
'Tonight my men and I have been through hell and back again, but the look on your faces when we let you out of the hall - we'd do it all again tomorrow.' Major Chris Keeble's words to Goose Green villagers on 29th May 1982 - 2 PARA
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Legacy Member
That idiot who bought Parker-Hale had some peculiar ideas about the direction he wanted the firm to move in, and he made it clear that it was his way, or the highway. Accordingly, many key personnel took the highway. Soon P-H was on the slippery slope towards insolvency, and the plug was pulled while there was still some money left.
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Advisory Panel
M85
I've had an M85 since the mid 1990's. I needed it for it's ability to take 20 round M14 mags so that I could compete against the influx of AR-15's and courses of fire that, in Practical Rifle, were increasingly being written with 20-40 round stages. With the steel bipod she is a heavy but very comfortable old girl - good enough to win the National Championships four times in a row and also on her first outing in the Civilian Service Rifle Championships in 2000. Very accurate but basically using a design that dates back to 1898. With the demise of armouring skills with the introduction of the SA80 I can see why they went for the L96 and the ability to change barrels and adjust for headspace at unit level. I have never found the L96 a very comfortable rifle to shoot but it is effective. The M85 is so much more comfortable and just as effective. I understand that one of the Para battalions was issued with it for a short time plus the RGJ and the odd Gurkha regiment - can anyone confirm that? The other strange thing is that virtually every publication I see shows it having a 700mm barrel when it is only about 650mm. I can't envisage ever getting rid if mine even though I have had to move over to the dark side and buy an AR-15 for CSR comps.
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The barrel change for an L96 wasn't a unit level op Nigel according to my experience and the EMER's. It was a Field/Command ABRO operation because it needed a set of special barrel and body clamps and a funny torque wrench adaptor. But they rarely needed a change although so-said, one lot of barrels, made somewhere up near the border as I understand it, were always suspect! One that I know of was said to shoot like a pig. The would-be sniper couldn't hit a cows ar5e with a cricket bat. The barrel was absolutely mint and when viewed by me and S/Sgt Geordie XXXX, was certainly only just into its first 1/4 of life. Changed the barrel and it came back a different rifle. That was the only one I recall that caused any head scratching. But as for AI............. what a xxxxxxx lot to deal with!
Just thought that I'd add that the first port of call for excess CHS was to change the bolt of course. On the L96, both the bolt body and the shroud were numbered
Last edited by Peter Laidler; 01-23-2014 at 11:44 AM.
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Contributing Member
Nigel,
You are right............the cream Parachute Battalion..... 2 PARA of course (I have to say that) had the M85 for over 3 years as they were forced into the L96 later in 1988 just as they were to embark on looking after Rudolph Hess for a secondment of 2 years in Berlin.
This occurred due to shooting competitions in BAOR where all had to fire the same front line sniper rifle.
I would suspect 2 RGJ would have been in a very much of a same situation, but not 100% sure on them. I can confirm however, that the Gurkhas had them in Hongkong then, and I suspect they hung onto them for dear life, as they loved them and it was a long long way away to be able to change them at a drop of a hat.
I think from my early research on the rifle, that two of our members have one of each from these two Regiments, perhaps they can date there's.
My rifle was built in 1990, and I am hopefully getting the M85 list as they were manufactured, sometime this week, so might be able to give some specific information on rifles for their owners.
Gil
'Tonight my men and I have been through hell and back again, but the look on your faces when we let you out of the hall - we'd do it all again tomorrow.' Major Chris Keeble's words to Goose Green villagers on 29th May 1982 - 2 PARA
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Interesting......... Are we all saying that this was a major deployment of the M85 into front line service or a minor trials type deployment. I will contact the main tech library to see what tech info there was available. In ANY case, there MUST have been some tech stuff to go with it, eminating from REME Inspectorate or the MAG's that oversee this stuff. It'd be like taking a batch of new Land Rovers in without the basic user handbook or maintenance manual. And all trials stuff comes in with a sort of Trials Log Book. One of which I sent to a collector on this forum that relates to something else. Can you show us the cover of the trials log book KtK? Anyone out there in forumland ever seen a provisional user handbook for one.........? Me neither and I was at the Small Arms School!
Don't write that book yet Gil!
Last edited by Peter Laidler; 01-23-2014 at 02:11 PM.
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Contributing Member
Ha Ha.................would never write a book especially on such a varied rifle and subject and the associated politics that went with its passover.
Spoke to one of the lads who was in at the time, there were a couple of M85's in the armoury, but he can't confirm whether they were "left overs" or personal officers rifles!! also no other replacement sniper rifles came their way until the move to Berlin.
Does that help, and yes I agree REME or someone supplying first line stores would know the definite answer, but 1 and 3 PARA were committed in NI.
Update:
Contrary to my earlier post, just an update from one of the snipers who was in then, the M85 was only there for a short period, so Peter did they come from your end and recalled, as the lads in 2 PARA had to shoot in Berlin with the L42, and never saw the L96 issued to them at all in the eighties.He puts it down to memory loss lol
Last edited by Gil Boyd; 01-23-2014 at 01:31 PM.
'Tonight my men and I have been through hell and back again, but the look on your faces when we let you out of the hall - we'd do it all again tomorrow.' Major Chris Keeble's words to Goose Green villagers on 29th May 1982 - 2 PARA
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The L96 started coming on stream in '87/88 as I recall BUT there was a major problem........ In fact THREE major problems. By major, I mean VERY major in that.......... anyway, enough said! So the introduction was delayed until it was sorted out and continued but couldn't be kept to the introduction schedule as I understand it. But that's a logistical matter. But the delay wasn't sufficient to bring in another bit of kit on an 'off-the-shelf' buy to cover the moment, like, say, a buy of Zenith 8x 50 binoculars was as a stop-gap or an 'LPO-buy' (LPO is a what we call a G-1922 local purchase buy, usually by Ordnance) during the early 70's. A major Base Workshop programme was initiated to refurbish a few hundred needy L42's so that there wouldn't be a shortage. As a matter of interest, and it's no secret now, but that's the reason why there was a need for some 50 or so brackets at the time
You'll all now understand the importance of written information, laid down and authorised with any equipment that comes through the system. Like the L96 of which I have a trials and provisional user handbook. But there is no such beast in the Small Arms School tech library for the M85, only the P-H L81.
Let me give you a little example. A certain 'gun' was needed to counteract a 'problem' that was manifesting itself 'somewhere in Britain'. A 'quantity' were obtained from the US. But even then, with a small procurement with VERY limited use in VERY limited circumstances, a doctrine had to be formulated and put together plus the user and other technical manual and an EMER. After all, if it failed and there's a user fatality or accident and............... You get my drift..........
And here's another little example of how this works............ I won't go on and on.
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Contributing Member
The M85 certainly had a very warm reception with the 6 rifles that went for trials at Hereford, and as stated in my article PH thought solely on that feedback that it was so positive , that they had a real chance of securing the contract at the time.
You can imagine, the mystique of the Regiment at the time to any civilian company after their success at the Embassy, could have believed they had won the day!!!!
Also elements of PARA REG and Gurkhas at the Jungle Warfare school in Borneo/Brunei apparently did have a glimpse at the weapons to trial them in the steam room, but as this was a little wishy washy and couldn't be clarified over time when I gleaned it, I left it out of my article.
Suffice it to say, whoever, trialled it certainly had a provisional user handbook with each weapon as stated by PH employees who saw the weapons go out of the door.
I have to throw in a reminder here.......times were really different in the 80's, and even the Police viewed weapons differently, and there seemed to be a more casual approach to all forms of weaponry in both civvy street and the Military, so keep that at the back of ones mind when we talk about memory fade and who/where and why weapons ended up for trials. The people passing on their knowledge sadly do have lapses like all of us, and thats why it is so important to get hold of hard recorded facts and files.
Last edited by Gil Boyd; 01-23-2014 at 03:35 PM.
'Tonight my men and I have been through hell and back again, but the look on your faces when we let you out of the hall - we'd do it all again tomorrow.' Major Chris Keeble's words to Goose Green villagers on 29th May 1982 - 2 PARA
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