1903 lee enfield mk1* questions south australia

[matthewsa]

hello everyone this is my first post in the lee enfield section on milsurps. my name is Matthew an i have been getting into collecting an shooting lee enfield. i have a few questions about the 1903 lee enfield i have 3 of them now my question is about the barrel the barrels in the ones i have are all 620mm 24.4 inches. i have talked to a couple of older blokes who told me this was done during world was 1 as all the smles went to the war an these were used around Australia for home front duties? i have put a few pictures up below of the good gun out of the lot the other two are more parts guns. the butts stocks have military service stamps up to 2/28 an the Lithgow shield stamped into them.








please let me no if any other pics are required thanks matt

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[matthewsa]

So can anybody give an idea why so many of these rifles have 640mm barrels????

[smle addict]

Hello, and welcome,
My guess is they are former club pattern rifles. A quick look at Skennertons book states that many MLE rifles were cut down to SMLE length (25.2 inches, or 640mm) for club competition shooting. The fact that yours is missing the rear volley arm, screw and dumbbell spring shows it probably wore a competition rear sight. Many of these guns were then gathered up for home defense duties at the onset of WW2. The competition backsights were disposed of. Or perhaps the prior owner of your rifle sold the rifle and backsight separately. That's my guess. Very nice Sparkbrook, wish I had one!

[matthewsa]

Thankyou for your reply smle addict I was a bit disapointed when I got home an reserachsaid the barrel was to short I have since found this article that says they where converted at lithgow arms eg so maybe its more the history of the rifle over it being butchered. Lee-Enfield No I Mk I* Shortened Range Pattern Rifle : South Australian Military Forces | Australian War Memorial

[Bruce_in_Oz]

Look for WW2 vintage stamps.

As many of these "range-pattern" rifles were "taken back" into service during WW2, they would have been inspected before issue to groups like the "Volunteer Defence Corps" (the Oz WW2 version of the British "Home Guard").

Mind you, a lot of VDC members were active Club shooters and already had their own rifles.

Typically, many never made it back to their original owners after the war, especially in Western Australia.

The VDC were also supplied with a limited number of WW1 vintage Maxim MG-08 and 08/15 machine guns, many of which were reworked to fire .303 ammo. Huge numbers of these MGs had been dragged back to Australia after WW1 and, pretty much intact, used as decorations in Ex-Services clubs all over the country. Until recently, there were still a few very ratty examples attached to memorial plinths in little country towns around the place. According to page 44/45 of Ian Skennerton's "Australian Service Machine Guns", "About 2000 guns were collected to eventually refurbish some 1500 guns in .303 calibre, and issued to the V.D.C........."

"........Vickers barrels were modified for these guns by fitting a new, shrink-on collar over the barrel reinforce to accommodate the seat behind the rear German gland tube................"

"Standard fabric Vickers belts were used ....."

The other rifle often seen in photos of the day is the Martini Cadet, usually a BSA, in .310 calibre. Oz ammunition factories even made "Hague Convention compliant" JACKETED ball ammo for them.

One VDC unit in Queensland went as far as making their own WORKING, 3 inch mortar AND ammo. The Australian War Memorial apparently has a specimen of such a mortar bomb in its collection.

[Son]

That article you found is almost all wrong. For starters there is no such thing as a no1 mk1. The rifle started as an LE Mk1* (long Lee Enfield) that has been shortened to range pattern. That means it belonged to a civilian range shooter while still a long Lee (30" barrel) and when the SMLE was adopted for rifle club target shooting, was converted to the new 25" barrel, either by replacing the barrel with a new made H barrel, or shortening the existing barrel. Usually if a new barrel, it would have the MkIII (No1 MkIII) front sight fitted. Yours, like the one (as far as I can tell) in the article, had the original barrel shortened and the original ramp forsight re fitted. Of course the foreend was shortened and shaped to take the original nosecap too. The conversions were done at Lithgow but many gunsmiths specialising in target shooting equipment also did conversions, usually incorporating Lithgow made H barrels with their own name on them, eg; "Motty" etc.

Interestingly, your rifle has a Metford form barrel with Enfield rifling... does it have a serial number on it?

At the outbreak of WW2 a lot of these rifles were handed in for the war effort. What they were depended on what was done with them. The range pattern rifles were used for home defence units as Bruce said above

[matthewsa]

Its serial number is 22963 would this mean anything

[sd4f]

That article you found is almost all wrong. For starters there is no such thing as a no1 mk1. The rifle started as an LE Mk1* (long Lee Enfield) that has been shortened to range pattern. That means it belonged to a civilian range shooter while still a long Lee (30" barrel) and when the SMLE was adopted for rifle club target shooting, was converted to the new 25" barrel, either by replacing the barrel with a new made H barrel, or shortening the existing barrel. Usually if a new barrel, it would have the MkIII (No1 MkIII) front sight fitted. Yours, like the one (as far as I can tell) in the article, had the original barrel shortened and the original ramp forsight re fitted. Of course the foreend was shortened and shaped to take the original nosecap too. The conversions were done at Lithgow but many gunsmiths specialising in target shooting equipment also did conversions, usually incorporating Lithgow made H barrels with their own name on them, eg; "Motty" etc.

Interestingly, your rifle has a Metford form barrel with Enfield rifling... does it have a serial number on it?

At the outbreak of WW2 a lot of these rifles were handed in for the war effort. What they were depended on what was done with them. The range pattern rifles were used for home defence units as Bruce said above

I can second that. Being a member of a fullbore club at the moment, I've dabbled in the history of this stuff. What I've been told is that the club shooters resisted moving to the SMLE for as long as possible, because they weren't as accurate as the long lees. They eventually had to shorten their long lees to SMLE length to comply with the rules, until sometime, if I recall correctly, in the 1930's, they had to use a SMLE, in which case shortened long lees became obsolete.