No.1 MkIII - 1953 FTR query

[Homer]

Wow! I'm very surprised to read that a No1 had a cutoff installed during an FTR in 1953.

[Peter Laidler]

So am I to be honest Homer as it was already an obsolete feature in 1918! As for the long range sights........ Replaced by something a tad more efficient in the form of Artillery, mortars and the Vickers MMG.

The reason that the slot was retained by some manufacturers on some of their production lines, so I was reliably informed, was that this feature was because of the complex largely radial/rounded shape of the body, the slot was used as a datum stop/hold for other machining operations and to delete it would mean a large scale shut-down of machinery while the slot was a) deleted and b) another method was found of registering the body for the next production stage. And in the great scheme of things, a one-step hit with a slitting saw was of no consequence except for the 20 second time factor. This is why some BSA (?) bodies have a slot but no screw hole

[Thunderbox]

The cut-off was reinstated after WW1. Thats why so many rifles were "star barred out" in the 1920s refurbishments, and why all new military rifles made in Britain up to 1941 were built with a cut-off - including, of course, all of the inter-war trials and test rifles up to and including the No4 Mk1.

Presumably the cut-off morphed from a fire control device into what was seen as useful safety device.

BSA would have FTR'd the rifle as they found it - with or without the cut-off. You find both MkIII* and MkIII (with cut-off) as '53 FTR specimens. If the OP's rifle has a low cut forend, than I'd be pretty sure it left BSA with a cut-off attached.

[Peter Laidler]

I have never seen an instruction that cut-offs were to be reinstated TBox and I have the very last Inspection Standards EMER for the No1. I have seen SAI's that say that if removed, the slot must be covered. It was never(?) policy to retro modify/return to obsolescent status kit. You might do it for historic reasons - like tigging over the cocking handle safety hole on a Sten as an example. It'd be like...... I can't think of another example really...... like reinstating the piling swivel. A totally redundant feature. Nope...., I agree that No1's were/are not my forte except for the EY's and the odds and sods that trickled through but never saw an instruction to reinstate cut-offs. What'd happen if the rifle had a high sided fore-end?

Just my 2c's worth of course

[Woodsy]

I got one of these in 1963 (for my 16th birthday) and it was a fully wooded No 1 Mk III*. The woodwork was all new beech and the metal finish was a black paint. The FTR 53 marking was engraved after painting. The price was NZ 9 Pounds, 10 shillings. I used it for hunting in the 'as issued' condition for about a year before I sporterised it and put on a 4 x32 scope. I did a stint as a professional hunter when I was 18/19 and its best ever day was 305 goats in about 1 hour. I shot a lot of deer with it and sold it when I was about 30 and it still had a good barrel as I looked after it. The barrel was a bit whippy and it would string vertically (I had removed the front and rear sights) but it would do a 5 shot 100 metre group of 3/4" horizontal x 1-1/2" vertical with CAC 1959 Mk VII ball.

[Peter Laidler]

I remember going to the CAC factory in Auckland Woodsy, in about '68 on a bit of a jolly to Sylvia Park or Papakura. We used a lot of CAC .303 and 7.62 ammo in Malaya through the pro-rata NZ/Aust/Pommy pooled Ordnance dumps. When did CAC stop making .303" At the big Ord Ammo dump at Ngaruawahia I was astounded to see more 7.92mm BESA ammo than I'd ever imagined existed - and always wondered why!!!!!!!

[Homer]

Not disagreeing with you Tbox, I'm just very surprised. I knew the cutoff was reinstated into production between 1922 and 1941 but I thought that was it and this is the first time I've heard the suggestion that they were installing cutoffs during the 50's. It's my understanding that it didn't happen in Australia but maybe someone will prove me wrong.

[5thBatt]

I have never seen an instruction that cut-offs were to be reinstated TBox and I have the very last Inspection Standards EMER for the No1. I have seen SAI's that say that if removed, the slot must be covered. It was never(?) policy to retro modify/return to obsolescent status kit. You might do it for historic reasons - like tigging over the cocking handle safety hole on a Sten as an example. It'd be like...... I can't think of another example really...... like reinstating the piling swivel. A totally redundant feature. Nope...., I agree that No1's were/are not my forte except for the EY's and the odds and sods that trickled through but never saw an instruction to reinstate cut-offs. What'd happen if the rifle had a high sided fore-end?

Just my 2c's worth of course

Did you have any instructions to remove cutoffs if there was one fitted?

[Woodsy]

I remember going to the CAC factory in Auckland Woodsy, in about '68 on a bit of a jolly to Sylvia Park or Papakura. We used a lot of CAC .303 and 7.62 ammo in Malaya through the pro-rata NZ/Aust/Pommy pooled Ordnance dumps. When did CAC stop making .303" At the big Ord Ammo dump at Ngaruawahia I was astounded to see more 7.92mm BESA ammo than I'd ever imagined existed - and always wondered why!!!!!!!

Hi Peter. CAC stopped making .303 in 1945 but started again in 1950 as the Army stocks reduced and continued until 1959, at which time they retooled the existing machinery to make 7.62x51. They lost the military contract in 1966 as the old converted .303 machines were well worn and inefficient. The company continued until the early 1980's with commercial ammo. The military contract ammo between 1950 and 1959 was very high quality and very accurate, winning many Commonwealth shooting events. I purchased the last of the NZ Army .303 in 1989 consisting of 231,000 rounds of CAC 1954 Mk VII bandolier packed, all from the Fairlie Ammunition Depot in South Canterbury. I only had a few cases left when you visited to rummage through the Bren mags in 2000. I was also selling surplus F4 7.62x51 by then. The 7.92 BESA was surplus as the Tankies had switched over to .30 Brownings by then. I have no knowledge of any 7.92 coming up for disposal so it must have exported or destroyed many years ago.

[Peter Laidler]

If a rifle came to us as a Mk3, with c/off it went out like that but if it needed a new fore-end, and we only had the later high sided fore-ends by the 60's, then it went out as a Mk3/1. All of the EY rifles were stripped, examined, packed with grease and re-wired. There were all sorts but new wood and they went out as Mk3/1's. Strangely enough I found a big roll of the wire used to re-wire the old EY's while clearing out the stores at the old ABRO workshop, all labelled up too! The strange thing was that during the whole Ordnance programme, I never saw a discharger cup! I think that we had the rifles but noone had the cups. ho ho ho!

Thinking about it, as I do occasionally - and the forum too (old joke there.....) I'm inclined to agree with TBox in his thread because BSA were COMMERCIAL contractors for a COMMERCIAL post-war/fifties FTR programme and if a rifle came in as a Mk3 then in the commercial world there's absolutely no EMER or ACI or whatever to say it should be sent out as anything else. And if the customer or
prospective buyer is happy, then so be it!

And it's always worth remembering that a Mk3 rifle is a Mk3 by virtue of its body. If you take the cut-off off, then it's still a Mk3 rifle body, albeit hidden under the fore-end. Much the same as a Bren Gun. If you (as we did all the time) put all Mk3 gun parts onto a Mk1 gun, it was STILL a Mk1 gun. Same as putting a Mk3 light weight butt slide and lightweight barrel onto a Mk2. It remains a Mk2 gun!