Rubbing handguard?

[Cdn303]

Hi all,

So I finally was able to shoot my new-to-me No4Mk2. I had noticed when I got it that there was a rub mark on the top of the barrel under where the upper band sits.

Anyhow, the first group I got is circled in red. So I took the upper hand guard off and shot another 5 rounds, lime green. The paper is 4.25" x 5.5" (1/4 sheet). Ignore the other tape marks and the writing.



So should I be relieving the inside of the hand guard to stop the rubbing? That is what would cause the vertical stringing like that, correct?

I am pretty sure the horizontal spacing on the green group was me, with a little bit of wind thrown in.

Thanks

Information

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[CINDERS]

I am sure there will be forumers along shortly to assist you but you neglect to state the range, ammo, does it have the singer sight finely adjustable or just the flip sight 3-600yds.
The sights are a tad tricky to use and if you have not used peeps before which dependant on where you sit the front blade in relation to the rear peep hole can cause stringing.
Ideally you want the blade in the centre of the rear peep and the top of the blade level with the centre of the rear peep hole, you also do not say if it is off a rest, free hand or with a sling nor what year the rifle is, temperature and so on etc.

The barrel could be a tad tired, have you had a look at the bedding of the action and the barrel there can be a myriad of things that affect the accuracy of these types of rifles and there sure is a lot of people here with far more experience than I to help you.
Also the forum likes lotsa pics so they can asses things they are pretty good at what they do.
Most are long standing armourers from different countries and arms of their respective services or they are highly qualified gunsmiths so you have come to the right place.

[Peter Laidler]

I'm not going to be as kindly or diplomatic as Cinders but I'm sure that he's thinking what I'm going to say. If it's a Mk2 rifle I can assume that it is a Mk1 clicker type backsight. We don't know the range either but if you don't mind me cutting to the quick and being brutally honest, then immediately, there's one or two or both BIG problems. That group or groups is/are absolutely dire to the extreme. In fact, it's crap! With groups like that, even at 300 yards it's not even worth continuing. I would get another reputable shooter to try to get something better.

You always fire 7 round groups. two warmers into the bank and a group of 5 (or 6 to cater for a DECLARED flyer!) You need to get yourself some factory Mk7 ball ammo of equal consistency and when you have, get a good shooter to do a re-shoot and come back and tell us the ammo and the range. But to be honest, a group like that looks like you've been looking through the gap above the aperture slide!

Sorry to be so harsh and tell-it-like-it-is but...................

[ssj]

It could be rubbing because the action is moving about in the lower forestock, so I wouldnt take anything off until the entire gun is checked out. There is a good article on here on replacing draws, which you can use to assess how tight they are, they do need to be tight and they do wear out. Pics help a lot.

[Patrick Chadwick]

Ignoring any "unrecoverable user errors": I have had rifles that have shot as badly or worse than that at first, and there was always a reason other than aiming through the wrong gap in the metal!

The clue is the difference between the two groups. The one in red has huge vertical stringing, but little horizontal stringing. The one in yellow/green has much less vertical stringing, but more horizontal.

A Lee-Enfield N. 4 is properly set up with a downwards pressure of the barrel on the fore-end. One would therefore expect to see a rubbing mark one the bottom of the barrel.

However, the shooter has observed a rubbing mark on the top of the barrel. This indicates an upwards pressure of the barrel on the handguard. This is diametrically opposed to what it should be, and is the likely cause of the vertical stringing. But it seems that the bearing has still acted to reduce sideways vibration.

With the handguard removed, the "lime green" group was obtained. Since the bearing has now been removed, the barrel can vibrate more in the horizontal direction as well, being effectively free-floating. The group is unusually large, but nevertheless better than the first one. However, it is accepted that No 4s do not in general show their best when they are free-floating. And the huge vertical stringing has disappeared.

With all respect for those who are learned in the arcane art of setting up and repairing draws, may I suggest that the first check should be to remove the fore-end completely and examine it for warping? If the fore-end is seriously* warped, then trying to correct for this by fiddling the draws is possibly a waste of time. A warped fore-end could be eternally unsatisfactory**, as you cannot be sure that the wood is stable - it may literally vary with the weather, i.e. humidity, and temperature, as it heats up because of proximity to a hot barrel.

If the fore-end is warped, rather replace it, and then set up the new fore-end by the book!

*I.e plainly obvious to the naked eye

** Been there, done that. Believe me, unless it is a highly collectible piece*** you should save yourself the trouble****.

***It was

**** Forget "all-original" - I want it to work!

[flying pig]

What did the third group do? Could it have the damned crack? Maybe a loose trigger guard screw?

It's a scientific experiment and we do need to know what your constants were and what variable you canged(obviously removing the handguard). To many things unclear, we need to know you were testing the rifle and not yourself.

[Peter Laidler]

To be really and truly honest, with two groups - and I hate to call them groups because they ain't nothing that I recognise as groups - like that you've got to start by eliminating the most obvious haven't you? I'd start by eliminating the human factor and getting another known decent shooter to take the reins first. With scattering like that, only when we have eliminated the human factor can we start a proper diagnosis. The next thing we need to know is at what range this scattering took place at and what ammo was he wasting? Was it factory ball, home loads, old wartime stuff recovered from a crashed plane - or what?

Sorry chaps, but diplomacy and tact don't help in these situations

[Cdn303]

After reading Cinders and Peters first posts morning it gave me time to think at work. So before supper I got the rifle out and looked over things.

What I learned: The collar is too long.

All the screws were tight. After getting the handguards off I noticed some up and down movement of the stock around the front trigger guard screw. So I removed the collar and washer, adjusted the screw to the start thread, and counted the turns till the screw tightened. That was 8 full turns plus about 1/6 of a turn (I marked it with pencil). I put the collar and washer back in and repeated. It was then 6 1/4 turns till it tightened.

So I'll have to shorten the collar and see how it shoots then.

Sorry for wasting all your time.

PS Where are you guys finding all this MK7 ball? I'd like to get some, but the guys I know that have it are not selling, and I can't go to the local shop and order it.

[Ridolpho]

Cdn303: Out of curiosity, how much up and down free-play would you estimate there was? A few thousandths of an inch or was it really loose? Your story provides yet another useful check for novice Lee Enfield users prior to attempting to shoot one of these old girls. Please show us a target after you shorten the collar and take your time shortening it. Use at least a set of vernier calipers to measure the length before you start working on it and repeat the test you describe after the first couple of thou. You'll rapidly see how much you have to shorten in total.

Ridolpho

[Bindi2]

Before you shorten the collar soak the forend in BLO . The wood has dried out and shrunk. Dont fix a problem and make another.