Pic of odd No.4 Mk1(T)

[breakeyp]

This 1943 Shirley No.4 Mk1(T) is annoying for several reasons.

1. The bayonet lugs have been removed from the barrel and machined area reblued.
I remember it said this was done for imports to some country. What country?

2. The buttstock is ZF marked with paint and a stamp. I pulled the buttstock and it is not original to the gun. It does not have a number on the wood socket and there is no scope number on the top of the wrist. The butt and forestock are not original to the gun and the forestock has no serial number. Therefore is the ZF pertinent to this gun or the one the wood was removed from? Why two sets of ZF markings? Visual and functional check of the receiver seems acceptable. The receiver has the normal T and TR markings.

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[limpetmine]

Picture 4 is odd. The cheek-piece doesn't fit very well. All I've seen are tight on the seam.

I never got the idea of ZF-ing the wood. It's the metal that's gone afoul. Stamp that and save us collectors this confusion. What were they thinking?

[Peter Laidler]

Limpet........ I'll tell you what they were thinking............. I tell it like it is and here it is from the proverbial horses mouth. They mark the woodwork in xxxxxxg great letters so that there is absolutely no doubt or confusion of any sort in anyones mind whatsoever, right down the Ordnance line, right up to its disposal, that the rifle is ZF. How much bigger could they reasonably make the letters.

They don't mark the body because the marking wouldn't be big and bold enough. If you had a Land Rover that had been badly landed on a parachute pallett and sustained a broken chassis, would you paint CAST on the chassis? Go on, answer me honestly. Nope............., you'd mark CAST in large, no, even larger xxxxxxg great yellow letters on the drivers windscreen so that everyone could see it.

If some turkey in the future wants to scrape it off then that's a matter for them. It's JUST because some turkeys out there did this sort of thing in the past that the old Crown Immunity system was stopped and now we don't have any arms sales in the UK except for export. To take the L42's and 39's as one simple example. Others are the disposal - or rather NON disposals - of No8's and L96's

[limpetmine]

I think you've addressed this before; about the wood marked ZF, sold out of service, but not re-used in the general supply chain. Is that about right?

[Peter Laidler]

The ZF system and markings have been well and truly discussed here and examples abound. What a civvy owner does with the ZF rifle or even the stripped off/ZF marked woodwork is of no concern to us at the sharp end. We mark the rifle distinctly and send it on down the Ordnance chain and that way they NEVER get back into the military food chain.

Even today (or at least until last August) I saw GPMG's and SA80's with cracked bodies with those fateful end-of-the-road letters painted on the butts (but bodies on the SA80's for obvious reasons!)

[Brian Dick]

Couldn't lugs from a direlict barrel be sleeved back on? I reckon it would be a better option than barrel replacement. My uneducated guess about the two "ZF" markings is that the stamped marking was done first and then enhanced again at some point with the big painted markings.

---------- Post added at 11:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:52 AM ----------

I've seen all manner of poorly fitted cheek pieces on these rifles. Remember that they were never designed for the No.4 buttstock so some that were installed hastily no longer look H&H factory fitted.

[Beerhunter]

The bayonet lugs have been removed from the barrel and machined area reblued. I remember it said this was done for imports to some country. What country?

How about yours?

Just joking Paul based on the Federal definition of an "Assault Weapon". Were not bayonet lugs one of the characteristics that made a self-loading rifle "evil"? As in AR15 bad - Mini14 - good.

[Warren]

Paul:
Removal of the bayonet lugs was a requirement of Germany many years ago. If it came through Germany it had to have the lugs removed and if semi auto it had to have the gas system neutered and the mag limited to 3 or 4 rounds.
The mind grows foggy with the years.
cheers,
Warren

[breakeyp]

All interesting points but as it has been tampered with (lugs removed), and the wood does not match the rifle, my wondering was if the wood and ZF mark really belonged to this rifle. Perhaps someone "improved" it with better wood being totally ignorant of what ZF means. I was also wondering if the lugs were removed by the warehouse in England for expected export to what ever country required deleted bayonet lugs (still asking who in Europe---Germany?) and for what ever reason it got sent to the US instead. Over the years I can't remember seeing many if any other No.4 without lugs. Yes the end of the barrel can be sleeved with a correct barrel segment. I had it done on 0C1 savage. He even matched the rifling twist.

[Lee Enfield]

snip... Over the years I can't remember seeing many if any other No.4 without lugs. Yes the end of the barrel can be sleeved with a correct barrel segment. I had it done on 0C1 savage. He even matched the rifling twist.

I've had it done twice now, take a derelict lugged barrel, chop near the reinforce, ream the bore out till and reduce the diameter of the lugless barrel so that there is a light interference fit, orientate lugs to knox form (or rear sight ears) and press on. Blend the joint so that it isn't apparent.

That way there is not needless barrel shortening going on.