LP08 help needed!

[WarPig1976]

P.S: Warpig, what is "SOL"?

SOL= S@$T outta luck or not much can be done...

[Johnny Peppers]

With a side by side comparison of a P.08 and LP.08 it is evident that sight radius is not the problem.

[WarPig1976]

Have you heard anything back yet Patrick?

[Patrick Chadwick]

Alas, apart from what you can see on this forum, no response!
And I confess to being somewhat disappointed.

[villiers]

Maybe it´d be helpful to copy and print the competition regulations to clarify where the problem really lies.

[Patrick Chadwick]

Basically a good suggestion Patrick. But it is, of course, in German!

To make it easier to read, I have “dotted out” the details of safety, range, scoring and such regulations that are not relevant to evaluating the eligibility of a specific weapon. English words in brackets are mine, to help find your way through the document. I have not translated the relevant text, as it might be thought that I had slanted the translation to suit my position.

General handgun rules:

C.1 Kurzwaffen - Allgemeine Regeln (Handguns, General Rules)
C.1.1 Schießstände (Shooting ranges) ……
C.1.2 Sicherheitsbestimmungen (Safety rules) ……
C.1.3 Holster ……
C.1.4 Kommandos (Commands) ……
C.1.5 Lauflänge bei Kurzwaffen (Barrel length for handguns)
Die Lauflänge darf bei Kurzwaffen 3" (7,62 cm) nicht unterschreiten.
Bei Revolvern ist die Lauflänge ohne Patronenlager, bei Pistolen mit Patronenlager zu messen. Waffen mit kürzeren
Läufen dürfen nur in der Disziplin "Off Duty Revolver Match" (C.9.7) benutzt werden.

(Note that a minimum length is specified, but not a maximum length)


Specific rules for the competition that concerns me:
C.3 Dienstpistole 1 (DP 1) (Service Pistol 1)
C.3.1 Waffe (Weapon)
Alle unveränderten Dienstpistolen (halbautomatische Pistolen) die bei einer regulären Armee, bei der Polizei oder beim Zoll geführt wurden oder derzeit geführt werden.
a) Visierung
Die Visierung muss dem Original der Dienstpistole entsprechen und darf nach der Waffenabnahme nicht mehr verstellt werden. Mikrometervisierung ist nicht zugelassen.
b) Abzug
1360 g, kein Triggerstopp
Triggerstopp im Sinne der Sportordnung ist ein verstellbarer Abzugsstopp.
Ausschwenkbarer Triggerstopp: Waffen mit ausschwenkbarem Triggerstopp können in dieser Disziplin eingesetzt werden. Der vorhandene Triggerstopp darf jedoch nicht verwendet werden.
c) Griffschalen
Griffschalen dürfen durch gleichartige, z.B. Pachmayr, ersetzt werden.
Sportgriffe, orthopädische Griffe, Umwicklungen und Überzüge sind nicht zulässig.
C.3.2 Kaliber
Kaliber .25 bis .456
C.3.3 Munition (Ammunition) ……
C.3.4 Anschlag (Stance) ……
C.3.5 Scheibe (Target) ……
C.3.6 Scheibenentfernung (Distance) ……
C.3.7 Schusszahl / Schießzeit (Shots/time) ……
C.3.8 Schießbrille (Shooting glasses) ……
C.3.9 Auswertung (Scoring) ……
C.3.10 DP 1 bis Entwicklungsjahr 1945 (Option: limited to pre-1945) ……

Note: there is NO mention of a shoulder stock. In the present list that curiously excludes the LP08, the Naval version (which was also used with shoulder stock, has a longer barrel that the standard P08, and a longer sight radius than the LP08) is specifically allowed.

Since the stated reasoning behind the list was to exclude handguns “that do not conform to the precise wording of the regulations”, any argument on the base of shoulder stocks, for instance, seems to me to be illegitimate. And if anyone can find something within the above wording that would rule out an original LP08 fired with ordinary commercial 9mm ammo, PLEASE let me know !!!!

[villiers]

Patrick, please explain!

Under BdMP rules there´s nothing to stop you using a P08, LP08 or a P04 (all without the stock) under the provisions of the DP1 category.

DP3 is for these pistols (with the possible exception of the P08 - although this could be a topic for further discussion) WITH the service stock.

That is how BdMP competitions are regulated in Berlin & Brandenburg. I am certified as a `supervisor´ (Aufsicht) and am a regular competitor.

So what reference do they provide to exclude the LP08 and/or P04 from competing in DP1?

[Patrick Chadwick]

Apologies to all those who may feel baffled by this Patrick-to-Patrick conversation, but I have to provide the real info.

Go here, read the text, look at the list - and be amazed!

http://www.bdmp.de/dateien/Aktuelles...e_140512-1.pdf

This is what happens when people try to regulate everything in one glorious total solution, instead of using a bit of common sense in individual cases.
Note how the text bangs on about going by the exact wording of the sporting regulations.

So what reference do they provide to exclude the LP08 and/or P04 from competing in DP1?

None. And they've had a month to answer my very precise and politely composed letter pointing out what I presume to be a mistake.
Note also that the P04 is permitted!

[villiers]

I´ve sent our local BdMP handgun representative a mail enquiring whether my LP08 would be acceptable in a DP1 competition. The wording of the pdf is inconclusive and ambiguous, and I cannot believe that the list of `Service Pistols´ is complete (to include all weapons issued in every country e.g. Bhutan or Outer Mongolia). I always understood that a BdMP member was entitled to use any handgun, as long as he/she could provide credible proof that it once had been `service issue´ and within the time limit. It has been my experience that BdMP officials here have been more than accommodating in this respect.

[Patrick Chadwick]

I´ve sent our local BdMP handgun representative a mail enquiring whether my LP08 would be acceptable in a DP1 competition.

Thank you very, very much.

The wording of the pdf is inconclusive and ambiguous,

You put that very tactfully indeed!