Werndl 11.15x42R 11mm scharfe Patrone M.67

[yulzari]

I had some Snider and Martini Henry cartridges formed for me from CBC brass and they are fireforned to my chambers and reloaded (also fireformed 16 bore CBC brass into Greener Special Bore for my 80€ Greener Egyptian Police MkI shotgun) so I have dipped my toe in the water. Werndl is in the post now.

[yulzari]

It has arrived. I may post some photographs on another thread. But, to keep to the matter in hand, I have made a chamber cast as below.

I tried bathroom silicone sealant. Don't! Tried sulphur but melting powder was vv smelly and the cast would not remain whole. This one was done with paraffin wax after oiling the chamber and preheating the metal with a paint stripper. Worked a treat, kept topping it up as it shrank on cooling and inserted a screw to hold one end. Popped it in the freezer for 2 hours after it had set then it came out with no problems at all. Another time I will add a wax crayon for colour.

I have marked where the 42 case should end and the 58 case should end. The apparent end is at 54mm but there is little discernible change as it becomes the throat with the rifling becoming apparent at 63mm. There is only a short shoulder of about 3,5mm.

Would this match to the 11,15x58R rechambering of the 1867 11,15x42R? The rear sight is still graduated to 1400 paces so is not updated.

Attachment 54570Attachment 54571

[Patrick Chadwick]

Would this match to the 11,15x58R rechambering of the 1867 11,15x42R?

I have already provided the basic information you need to answer this question: And the answer is - neither one nor the other!

If you do this carefully, the method is quite sensitive enough to show you whether the proper case diameter is
(approx.) 13 mm = 11.15x42R or
(approx.) 14 mm =11x58R.

What you have measured seems to be considerably fatter than the 11x58R.
base diameter 13.86mm, you have 14.7mm
rim diameter 15.62, you have 16.5mm
case at shoulder 13.26, you have 14.0mm
neck start 11.8mm, mouth 11.62mm, you have 12.2mm.

All this is seriously oversize for the 11x58R. In fact, the neck diameter suggest that it is not a 11.15mm calibre at all!

I suspect you may have a real oddball chambering, like the 11x59R/11.3x59R / .45 Turkish Peabody-Martini
- or one of the 2 Rumanian versions of the Peabody-Martini cartridge (the short shoulder is suggestive).
Sounds crazy? Not if you consider that the Werndl was a rifle of the Austro-Hungarian empire, and would have found its way into the Balkans and beyond...where the next generation of users could have rechambered it to use Peabody-Martini ammo.

In other words, you need to make a very accurate casting with, if not sulphur, then Wood's metal.
And when making length measurements, do not forget that you are probably measuring from the front of the rim, so you need to add on about 2mm for the rim thickness, to compare with published length measurements taken from the base.
You also need to drive a soft-lead bullet (45 muzzle-loader ball?) right through the bore from end to end, to establish what the actual bore diameter is.

Slug the bore, make the casting, post the results, and then we can think again.

[yulzari]

Hence the question. However, I took note of your comment and ran a caliper down the bore and breech to compare to the wax cast. The cast comes out as oversize and the breech and bore match 11,15x58R albeit slightly larger but within the range over a loose reaming and a worn (but shootable) bore so I will go ahead and treat it as 11,15x58R. The rim lip is still over 16mm though. I have found '77' stamped twice below the receiver. Hopefully that is a sign it was modified to M1865/77.

Thank you for the advice.

I think we crossed in posting. Interesting ideas. I have seen one that was taken to .43 Spanish in Argentina.

Forcing a Martini Henry round (in soft lead) up the muzzle gave 11,32mm/11.57mm or .445"/.455".

[yulzari]

Decided to carefully repeat everything. Got pretty much the same result and established the calipers were not put in straight into the breech so the dimensions pretty much stand. Checked out 11,43x55R Turkish Peabody Martini and No2 Musket and it looks close to them. Certainly a .45"ish not .43". The shoulder looks more Turkish than No2. So my Martini mould could be suitable. I have seen references to making No2 from CBC 32 bore cartridges so, presumably one could do the same with Turkish?

[yulzari]

I am kindly being sent a No2 Musket case and a Turkish Peabody Martini case to try in it. I am tending towards Romanian Steyr Martini as the model so N02 will be a good match. We will see if either fits in and the fireformed result if one does.

[Patrick Chadwick]

Decided to carefully repeat everything. Got pretty much the same result and established the calipers were not put in straight into the breech so the dimensions pretty much stand.

I can only advise you on the basis of your measurements. It is not easy to distinguish between the various "flavors" of these old cartridges in worn chambers. So I think a good idea would indeed be to get hold of a 32-bore case, size it down somehow with something so that it fits, and fireform it. That will give you an excellent idea of what you need, regardless of what it is called.

And the 32-bore case is an economical starting point for cartridges such as the 11x50R Albini (maybe also the Comblain, maybe also the Brazilian and Belgian versions, depending on chamber wear), Peabody-Martini, Romanian Peabody, Egyptian Remington, 11,4x55R and -59R Turkish, No. 1 Musket, No. 2 Musket.... The "not invented here" syndrome was rampant in those days!

In fact, since using anything else but the 32-bore case is going to be very expensive, I would instantly get at least 100, especially as availability appears to be a bit erratic.

As you live in France, may I suggest that you get in touch with the Arquebusiers de France (of which I am a member) as a way of meeting other people who have had this kind of problem and who may be able to help you with sourcing the cases? Look for a muzzle-loaders meeting not too far away, and go there to meet shooters and vendors.

[yulzari]

No2 and Turkish Martini kindly provided trial cases arrived this morning. Tried them both and they bottomed out short. The base case dimensions should have let them chamber but the shoulders are a gnats too far forward. I tried a .276 WSM that has a crisp shoulder shape and a case that is not too loose. Its neck bottomed out in the chamber at 33.6mm (say 1.4") from the top of the rim so that is where my shoulder starts. Lord alone knows what it actually is. Suggestions have included necked up .43 Remington, Spanish or Egyptian, and whatever it was that the Montenegrins or Persians had theirs made for. Comparing it to the 1867 11.15x42 drawings the case wall length is not too far out. I would hazard a guess that it is an 1867 chamber reamed out to increase the capacity to match a new/rebored .45" barrel. I hereby name it the '45 Ruritanian Gatling' until I know otherwise.

A case made as a shortened Turkish Martini cut to 50mm and with a shoulder starting at 33mm above the rim top (ie not from the base/bottom) would probably do the job.

Comments welcomed with open arms!