circle W 1917 bayonet

[rice 123]

I have sold my 1917 Winchester and I promised to throw in a bayonet I have a run of the mill 1917 bayonet and I have a minty Winchester circle W bayonet. I have not seen many of the circle W bayonets would I be better off to keep the circle W or are the Circle Ws even USGI bayonets?I have not seen a lot POF info on them

Information

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[browningautorifle]

Of course they're government bayonets...when have you seen civilian bayonets? Some think the Winchester bayonets are more collectible, but I should think the Winchester bayonet should go with the Winchester M1917. If he's not particular and will settle for less then give him whichever one you want to.

[rice 123]

thanks for the help I had read that the circle W bayonets without US markings were leftovers after WW1 and were included with the trench guns sold to police departments in the 20s. that is why I was questioning if they were USGI

[browningautorifle]

The police didn't take the bayonets I think. The blades were also used with the M1917 rifles and many of those made an appearance in France in WW1. You could still find as new blades and M1917s for that matter when I was starting collecting in the '70's...they made lots of them.

[therno]

The Winchester M1917 defiantly fetch a premium. Almost double the price of a typical Remington made M1917. I even once or twice I have seen then break the $300 for W made m1917s that are minty( original scarab, lots of bluing left)

[Bayonetman]

The circled W without the other US marks is almost certainly commercial. Following WW1 Winchester sold the Model 97 shotguns with the hanguard sleeve/bayonet stud to police departments and there is good reason to believe that they furnished these non-US marked bayonets with them. I have been told that there are Winchester ads from the 1920s that show the shotguns and indicated that they were furnished with bayonets.

They are definitely scarcer than the US marked versions, but have a somewhat smaller collector following since they cannot be proven to be US military issue.

[browningautorifle]

there is good reason to believe that they furnished these non-US marked bayonets with them

OK then. Show me ONE. Just one... All these ads referred to surplus equipment. There was tons of it. I don't believe the police took bayonets with the guns. Most of these guns had been altered after police use. Bayonet studs cut off, muzzle boss removed, entire heat shield removed...they just needed shotguns.

Don't know where you got the idea he has a no US marked bayonet. That wasn't included in his description.

[Bayonetman]

OK then. Show me ONE. Just one... All these ads referred to surplus equipment. There was tons of it. I don't believe the police took bayonets with the guns. Most of these guns had been altered after police use. Bayonet studs cut off, muzzle boss removed, entire heat shield removed...they just needed shotguns.

Don't know where you got the idea he has a no US marked bayonet. That wasn't included in his description.

I beg to disagree to some extent. Although rice123 did not specifically state the lack of US markings, he did use a common collector term for them, the "Circle W" and comments further "are the Circle Ws even USGI bayonets?" and then in his second post says "I had read that the circle W bayonets without US markings were leftovers after WW1 and were included with the trench guns sold to police departments in the 20s. that is why I was questioning if they were USGI " which certainly makes the point.

The sale of these shotguns and bayonets to police departments is well known, and although I do not have one of the ads, they do appear in special advertising that was sent only to Law Enforcement and not in regular commercial advertising. Having collected US bayonets for over 50 years, I have seen information that I unfortunately was unable to obtain a copy of at the time. At one time I saw a photo of police armed with the M1897 trench shotgun fitted with the bayonet with the label that they were used in crowd and riot control. Wish there had been cell phones with cameras around 30 years ago, I would certainly have had more copies of things that I saw but could not copy.

Most recently, a NRA blog article speaks to this question. Which Bayonet For The '97 "Trench Gun"? - American Rifleman

I viewed the shotguns and bayonets of the so-called "Ivanhoe" sale of the Richmond VA trench shotguns and bayonets which made me just that much more certain of the connection.

Bayonetman - Gary Cunningham
Author, American Military Bayonets of the 20th Century
Website: Bayonet Points

[browningautorifle]

So...you don't have one that's not marked martially...? Rumor and conjecture don't count. Gun show stories...

[Bayonetman]

Sir, I am not sure where you get your information. These bayonets are fairly uncommon but not rare. Attached is a photo from one of my website articles. I would suggest that you refrain in the future from commenting on things that you are not familiar with.