Lee Enfield SN

[Bruce Leahy]

Hello,

I believe I have a Savage Lee Enfield stamped U.S. Property on the receiver, with the serial number 59C1223.

Can anyone tell me about it?

Thanks,

Bruce

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Alan de Enfield]

It was the 591,223'rd No4 Enfield built by Savage. (it came from a big family & had about 1.2 million brothers and sisters. about half of them older, and half of them younger)

[Bruce Leahy]

Thanks, any idea of year?

[Roger Payne]

I'm not a real expert on Savage No4's like some of the other forummers, but IIRC Savage stopped dating their rifles during 1943. They ceased production altogether in mid 1944, so I would guess that yours is one of the earlier non dated rifles, probably made in 1943.

Someone shout if I've got it wrong!

[Seaspriter]

any idea of year?

We can estimate the Savage Enfield serial numbers connected to these APPROXIMATE dates:
Jul-Dec 41 0C0001-0C2800
After Jan 42, these serial numbers are APPROXIMATE (+/- 1 month):
Jan 42 0C3800
Feb 42 1C1500
Mar 42 2C5000
Apr 42 6C4500
May 42 10C0000
Jun 42 13C4500
Jul 42 17C1000
Aug 42 20C7500
Sep 42 24C4000
Oct 42 28C0500
Nov 42 31C7000
Dec 42 35C3500
Jan 43 39C0000
Feb 43 43C6500
Mar 43 46C6500
Apr 43 49C9500
May 43 53C6000 -- 51Cxxxx to 60Cxxxx for changeover to no date.
Jun 43 57C2500
Jul 43 60C9000
Aug 43 64C5500
Sept 43 68C2000
Oct 43 72C8500
Nov 43 76C5000
Dec 43 80C0000
Jan 44 84C5000
Feb 44 89C0000
Mar 44 93C5000
Apr 44 97C5000
May44 0C50000
Jun 44 0C63000

Remember these approximations for reference. The data was derived from extrapolation, not Savage Production Data (which seems to be missing).
Robert

[Roger Payne]

Wow! I'm impressed!

[Seaspriter]

Fortunately there is enough data in the Savage-Enfield Owner’s Survey from an earlier post in another thread to determine how to link Production Dates to Serial Numbers (within a month’s accuracy). This information tells us that:
1941 ~ 2,800 units produced, beginning July 22, 1941
1942 ~380,000 units produced
1943 ~445,000 units produced @36,500 units/month
1944 ~220,000 units produced, ending June 22, 1944
According to Milsurps “Really Senior Member” Mk VII in England: A hand-written document in the file drawn up in 1946 on receipts of small arms from the USA notes the total of No.4's sent as:
Total Production: 1,193,136
Sunk/Lost in Transit: 46,678
(Savage Enfield)
Mk VII’s research also found: “A later document in my possession dated Dec. 3rd says that Savage production for Nov. 1941 was nil, due to production difficulties, and another telegram dated 6th Jan. 1942 says the number accepted by inspectors in December was 1325. At this point Savage expected to produce 1500 in January and 3500 in February and 7500 in March.” [Note: the 3500/month & 7500/month targets were "ramp-up" production targets.]

It's reasonable to estimate that, because production in early 1942 was going through “ramp-up,” full production was probably attained by spring 1942. Based on production serial numbers, production reached ~1,200 per day (assuming a 7 day/week production line), reaching ~ 36,500 rifles per month, and continued at full production throughout 1943, and then wound down in the last 2 months of production (May-June 1944).

From this data I was able to create a production spreadsheet.

There is a "back story" I'm most interested in: whether it is true or legend that Savage and Long Branch helped each other stay in continuous production using the other's sub-contractor's excess inventory when their main subcontractors ran short. (There was a New York Central rail line between Boston and Buffalo, connecting to a Canadian Pacific line at Niagara Falls then on to Toronto. See http://www.schenectadyhistory.org/re...ad_map-600.jpg )

This supply chain collaboration happened with the M-1 Carbine and is very well documented with some great stories. Any evidence of this happening with the North American Enfields?
Robert

[Peter Laidler]

I would say that such inter-factory distribution of spare parts production capacity was certain. However, there is the down side that some production will have been earmarked as spare parts. On that basis, you store excess production until it is (inevitably) required. And while Savage was a commercial undertaking, Long Branch was a Government factory, both operating from different Countries no less! How does Peter pay Paul and vice verca? It was simple in the UK where everyone was working for the same Government

[Lee Enfield]

...snip...

There is a "back story" I'm most interested in: whether it is true or legend that Savage and Long Branch helped each other stay in continuous production using the other's sub-contractor's excess inventory when their main subcontractors ran short. (There was a New York Central rail line between Boston and Buffalo, connecting to a Canadian Pacific line at Niagara Falls then on to Toronto. See http://www.schenectadyhistory.org/re...ad_map-600.jpg )

This supply chain collaboration happened with the M-1 Carbine and is very well documented with some great stories. Any evidence of this happening with the North American Enfields?
Robert

The first argument against this story/idea is the control that all transportation and shipping was under during the war. Everything which moved (including people) in the US had a priority level for transportation, you couldn't just drop a box onto the train and expect it to arrive during a specific time window. World War II Railroads - HowStuffWorks


The second is the fact that there is no direct route from Chicopee Falls, Mass, to Toronto, ON. The shortest route by road today is 742km (roughly 465 miles); no route by rail could be much shorter (google map it if you don't believe me).

"Savage" No4 rifles were not actually built by Savage, they were built by Savage's J. Stevens Arms "subsidiary".

Part of the confusion may be based on the idea that Savage was (founded) in Utica New York roughly half the distance of Chicopee from Toronto (though still separated by considerable distance and a "great lake"...

The "evidence" for this story is based on the fact that some Savage parts appear to have been shipped to Long Branch AFTER Savage production ended in 1944, specifically, Savage MkI rear sights converted to MkI/I and found (mainly) on 90L8 block Long Branch sniping rifles. These Savage MkI/I sights are also found on 1944 BSA No4 (T) rifles, does anyone believe that BSA and Savage shared component parts back and forth during the war?

ALL of the other Savage bands and hanguards I have found on Long Branch rifles are obvious rebuilds or repairs in service, or the LB was MANUFACTURED after Savage stopped producing No4 rifles.

No one has shown a war-time condition Savage No4 with Long Branch furniture or bands which does not show signs of rebuild, or replacement in service.

Anyone have a Savage or Long Branch which contradicts these observations?

[Peter Laidler]

A couple of small points to ponder but Savage weree not a charitable organisation and someone MUST have paid for the overrun/left over parts that were manufactured for and on contract for Britain. A small point not really relevant here but there is no such thing as a Mk1/1 backsight for the No4T rifle. It is simply a Mk1 sight modified in accordance to the EMER technical notice.

I appreciate that it's a long way from Chicopee Falls to Toronto (it's the same distance from Singer in Glasgow to Enfield to put it into a bit of perspective) and wartime travel might have been a chore but the fact(?) remains that some S parts were shipped to LB. As for the Q. asking whether anyone believes BSA and S shared components back ands forth during the war. Let me be a tad diplomatic with my answer and suggest that your Q is really not comparing like with like. 460 land miles isn't quite the same as crossing the Atlantic in my opinion..........