Looking for some help/direction with a No 4 Mk 1 T

[AR44]

Hi all. I am new to this forum. I own one of the above noted rifles and am out looking for validation and/or valuation. Ultimately I would like to sell it, but with proper authentication. To what end can I do that here or am I better off finding the best Smith I can in Canada and having him sign off on it?

Some history if you like and a photo (more can be provided). I bought the rifle about 30 years ago from a fellow who was selling off his late fathers estate. He claimed his father worked at one of the Enfield factories, obtained the rifle and eventually emigrated to Canada. The fellow claims the rifle had never been fired. I can't confirm that, but I can confirm that I have not. Something I would also like to try and confirm as well.

Attachment 59931

This picture is a camera exported jpg. I can provide full size RAW files with metadata that will show no photo editing was made.

Thanks

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[mmppres]

wow i do not know much about the fine rifle but that is sure nice looking. those that knowwill be along soon to tell you.

[AR44]

Thanks mmpres. Looking forward to it.

[enfield303t]

Well it looks amazing and yes please post more pictures that show serial numbers etc on the gun, scope etc. It appears to be a beauty, not too often you see one in that condition.

It would have been test fired at the factory however by the look of it probably never issued.

Look forward to more pictures, will help a lot in ascertaining value etc.

[snipershot1944]

Amazing rifle.

[Roger Payne]

Yes, close ups please. As the others have said, it certainly looks pretty & little used; the look of the rifle woodwork, the hinges on the transit case etc. However, odd that it has a three handed scope adjusting tool along with a Mk3 scope - but the tool could have been a pick up of the original owner's along the way. Detailed close up pix especially of the rifle body with scope OFF are always very helpful........

[Promo]

Would there have ever been No. 4 Ts without a S51 marking? Just since this rifle looks like it doesn't have one (opened the picture in an seperate window and looked at it in full resolution).

[Surpmil]

Would there have ever been No. 4 Ts without a S51 marking? Just since this rifle looks like it doesn't have one (opened the picture in an seperate window and looked at it in full resolution).

Yes, IMHO all those up until sometime in 1943, when the S51 mark became a S.O.P., to use a North American term.

In "Without Warning" it is mentioned that, "...a survey of British Army sniper equipment taken in November 1943 revealed that there were 3,756 rifles with No.32 scopes, 900 rifles with Patt. '18 scopes and 450 rifles with Aldis scopes (Alex Martin P14 conversions - not all with Aldis scopes) still on issue to the British Army." The Canadian Army was not up to establishment in No4(T)s until around January 1944 according to the same source and their requirement was about 1400 rifles.

When you subtract the reputed 1407 converted at RSAF(E) that's not very many produced in some two years: 2349 and if we add the 1400 or so that brought 1st Canadian Army up to establishment by Jan. 1944, that's 'about' 3749 produced until that date.

One can see why the vast majority of No4(T)s have 1944 and 45 dates.

Anyway, that's my guess: S51 not appearing until some time in '43. You may hear different from others better qualified to say!

[Peter Laidler]

It was part of the contractual arrangement that H&H were to mark their output with - and I think the wording was something like '...........a recognised trade mark or one to which you will/would be allocated' And the latter was the S51 that was allocated to them! I never saw one without the mark unless of course it was one that'd had the but changed for several reasons.

I never really thought too much about the numbers game (always fraught with toooooo many variables of course) but in the grand scheme of things, it wasn't until the fighting got into Southern Europe/Italy that sniping really took off.

Incidentally, that little packing note could usually be found in the little pressed/folded tin holder thing nailed to one end of the chest. And the woodwork looks a bit too much like something from an apprentices trade test example...........

[Roger Payne]

Rob,
There were a number of 1941 dated BSA Savage & Maltby rifles in the batch we bought back in the 1990's, & of those that still had butts on them, all bore the S51 except one, which had obviously been rebutted at some point. You might be right, but for this reason I've always assumed that as far as the marking system went, the S51 was probably the first to appear in regular use (our rifles generally lacked the other characteristic markings such as the 'T', 'TR', etc.). Admittedly we are talking of a small sample size, but of around ten or a dozen rifles, all the same. We also bought some cannibalised spares & amongst the several sacks of bits was an early 4T butt bearing a TINY S51 stamp, only about 1/8" tall. Perhaps it was added after the event, or maybe it belonged to one of the first rifles to be converted & marked by H&H, before they'd got into their stride......??