Criterion No.4 barrel testing

[Brian Dick]

I finally had some range time with the test rifle. I went through proper barrel break in procedure several weeks ago when I completed it so this was the second time on the range. I fired all of the five shot groups at 100 yards off sandbags. The rifle is a 1943 Savage No.4Mk.1* I built to MoD specification. I added an AJP 8/53 back sight attachment with an adjustable camera iris eye piece which helped me a lot. I managed one exceptional group under 2" with 1971 FNM Mk.7z and groups averaging 2.5"-3" with both FNM 71, 1969 and 1977 HXP Mk.7z. I also handloaded a great match load as worked up by the best precision rifle shooter I know with the 174 gr Sierra MK projectile. I managed a couple of four shot groups under 1" but always managed a trusty flyer opening it up to 2"-2.5". I can't blame the machinery for that. Just the nut behind the bolt. All in all: I'd say these new barrels will shoot 1 moa with the right shooter and 2-3 moa easily with average shooters like myself on a good day! The factory are making the final tweaks and the barrels will be available soon. The tatty old Savage rifle shoots so well, I'll eventually break it down and refinish the metal to MoD specification and spiff up the wood a little bit too.

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[browningautorifle]

I had no doubt the Criterion would work well.

[ssj]

One is here in NZ apparently being tested. One comment i recall is that the rifling is not as deep? In which case they may like boat tails more? I am looking forward to 1 or 2 new barrels as soon as I can. What it does now mean is the price of No4s will I suspect climb here in NZ as ppl can re-barrel (most guns I see have shot out or corroded barrels) and are worthless. Hoping I can find another 1 or 2 decent guns soon needing only new barrels at a reasonable price.

[corben1]

I'm a little behind, Brian, but having a good time with test barrel #3. At least I got one bullet down the spout yesterday.

I didn't have any rifles that I wanted to rebarrel only, so dug out an old BSA Mk1 action. Barrel fitting was almost too easy. The rest was almost too much challenge for a lazy old fellow like me. The wood used was a real collection. The forestock is beautiful birdseye. The remainder is vertical and horizontal laminate. I wondered how this odd collection would look when together, but it seems to be a pleasing mismatch. The Canadian target shooters were allowed the creation of such wonderful wood for their No 4 rifles.

Now to digging up some of the good old Canadian ammo and to handloading .303. Wow, a few years since that happened!

[Brian Dick]

That's a much prettier rifle than the one I cobbled up. However, I will make this one pretty as time progresses. Now that the hot months are here, it'll be added to a pile of projects getting the phosphate and paint treatment. The production barrels are going to have raised chamber areas and short chambers so they will entail more work to install and set up properly. The sample barrel shot very well. Much better than I can!

[Frederick303]

Well....

Now I am not trying to be contrary, but as a competitive shooter who had an eleven year obsession with tuning and shooting No4 and No 1 MK III rifles, I very much doubt any of the .303 rifles would shoot MOA, at the shorts or the longs. By that I mean 10 shot groups fired from a position or a rest with target sights from a skilled shooter who knows his stuff. That is with good MK VII cordite loads or with VIIZ equivalent in any bullet from 150 to 175 grain. Regardless of velocity tuning range from 2150 to 2450 fps.

Now I am only a Yank, but I would say an No 4 that can put 10 shots in to less than 5.5 inches at 300 yards is shooting quite well indeed. Any No 1 MK III that is doing less that 7.0 inches for ten shots at the same range is, once again, shooting very well (sling or supported, Parker sights, good eye sight, no shots called out of group).

On equivalent US weapons, using 168 grain to 175 grain .308 bullets, I would say a well tuned M14 is capable of 4.5 inch groups at the range , again from a skilled shooter prone sling supported or a rest, an M16 NM variant with float tube an associated gizmos being more like 3.5 inches at that range. I have reasons to believe the latter figure is limited by eyesight.

Further, it has been my observation that with either the No4 or the No 1, the groups you see at the shorts are even worse. so a No 4 that shoots better than 2 MOA @ 100 yards would win any match it was entered in against other No 4 rifles, and a No1 MK III that would shoot a 10 shot groups of under 3 MOA at that distance would pretty much beat all other No 1 comers, if using full power ammunition. If the velocity of the loads for the No1 Mk III is dropped to between 2150 and 2250, the troublesome vertical wild shots seem to disappear with powders in the region of IMR 4064 speeds. In those cases a No1 MK III that can produce groups of 2.5 MOA at that range will beat all other No21 rifles on the line.

I suspect the No3 rifle would do better, I simply do not have enough experience with these rifles to make a definitive statement.

I am curious if folks who have shot the rifles from position and in matches would say they will do better than that on a regular basis.

[desky85]

Would it be worth using a bolt on scope mount and scope to really test the set up out?

[Brian Dick]

Well…

Now I'm not trying to be contrary but maybe you wasted a lot of time and effort tuning and tweaking when you should have just made sure the forends were properly fitted to MoD specification. I'm firmly in the camp of: "if it's good enough for a sniper rifle, it's good enough for me". I was only shooting 5 shot groups as instructed by Criterion and I did have flyers but I'm convinced this old rifle with it's new, properly broken in sample barrel WILL shoot 1 MOA with the match load concocted by my friend in Florida and assembled by myself. It'll definitely shoot 2 MOA with Portuguese FNM 1971 Mk.7z ball which is some of the best late manufacture surplus .303 I've ever found. I'll be glad to send you the targets just exactly as I did to Criterion if you don't believe me. Got them right here on my IMac. Send me an email to bdlltd@bellsouth.net and I'll scan them to you. My bench can be seen on Criterion's Facebook page along with my poor old cobbled up Savage if anyone's interested. Facts are stranger than science!

[Bindi2]

Well....

Now I am not trying to be contrary, but as a competitive shooter who had an eleven year obsession with tuning and shooting No4 and No 1 MK III rifles, I very much doubt any of the .303 rifles would shoot MOA, at the shorts or the longs. By that I mean 10 shot groups fired from a position or a rest with target sights from a skilled shooter who knows his stuff. That is with good MK VII cordite loads or with VIIZ equivalent in any bullet from 150 to 175 grain. Regardless of velocity tuning range from 2150 to 2450 fps.

Now I am only a Yank, but I would say an No 4 that can put 10 shots in to less than 5.5 inches at 300 yards is shooting quite well indeed. Any No 1 MK III that is doing less that 7.0 inches for ten shots at the same range is, once again, shooting very well (sling or supported, Parker sights, good eye sight, no shots called out of group).

On equivalent US weapons, using 168 grain to 175 grain .308 bullets, I would say a well tuned M14 is capable of 4.5 inch groups at the range , again from a skilled shooter prone sling supported or a rest, an M16 NM variant with float tube an associated gizmos being more like 3.5 inches at that range. I have reasons to believe the latter figure is limited by eyesight.

Further, it has been my observation that with either the No4 or the No 1, the groups you see at the shorts are even worse. so a No 4 that shoots better than 2 MOA @ 100 yards would win any match it was entered in against other No 4 rifles, and a No1 MK III that would shoot a 10 shot groups of under 3 MOA at that distance would pretty much beat all other No 1 comers, if using full power ammunition. If the velocity of the loads for the No1 Mk III is dropped to between 2150 and 2250, the troublesome vertical wild shots seem to disappear with powders in the region of IMR 4064 speeds. In those cases a No1 MK III that can produce groups of 2.5 MOA at that range will beat all other No21 rifles on the line.

I suspect the No3 rifle would do better, I simply do not have enough experience with these rifles to make a definitive statement.

I am curious if folks who have shot the rifles from position and in matches would say they will do better than that on a regular basis.

I remember scoring for guys using the No1 Mk3s who regularly shot the spotters to pieces. The peg supply had to be replenished regularly. But then they were Australian team members or had been.

[Surpmil]

I think one only has to check the winning scores at Bisley, among other places, over the last century or so to see what a well set up No1 or No4 is capable of.