Kicking the Black Dog.

[mike webb]

Like Paul said, no two people react in the same way to the same situation. I heard the same thing from an Afghanistan vet who said he had no major problems with PTSD but many of his comrades did after being in the same situations. He said," He didn't hold it against them, everyone is different."
Patton's slapping incident was over the top and he was nearly sacked over it. I have read accounts of men who were in the thick of it in WW1 and WW2 for months even years and did everything and more that was expected of them. And one day they simply broke and suffered a total mental collapse. A WW2 vet told me a similar story about his sergeant-major who suffered a breakdown in Holland. He said, "He was the bravest man I ever saw, he just couldn't take any more."

[Mk VII]

Somewhere in his book Lord Moran writes of each man having a 'bank balance' of courage. Some men have a smaller balance than others; these we call cowards, other have a greater balance than common men, but if any of them is called upon to draw on it too frequently his credit becomes exhausted and he breaks down.

[muffett.2008]

I don't think 'courage' has much to do with it.
More than likely it goes back to our Social structure and upbringing, when we are earbashed for all our formative years about right and wrong.
Only to be thrown into situations where all our beliefs go out the door.
Trying to juggle our ethics in violent situations,against our previous teachings leaves us in a mental quandry when we are allowed too much time to reflect.
Once soldiers were taught to hate the enemy, now it's uncertain exactly who the enemy is, women and children are suddenly thrown into the equation.
The very people we spend all our time to protect suddenly become a threat.
I can't speak for what's in everyones head, I just know from experience, that it's very difficult to feed back into normality without assistance.

[Peter Laidler]

The PROBLEM that many outsiders are now up against is that it's not just some (it's still a very small proportion apparently) of the ex servicemen who suffer from this, it is now ambulancemen, Policemen, Firemen. Enough said there as it'd be a tough call to call this battle related. But in a case in point recently, an electricity board man who watched his friend virtually fry alive while working in an old electricity sub station. The irony there was that he is now permanently disabled with PTSD........... and guess what........... the friend who was literally fried alive was off work for 6 months, recuperated and is now back at work! I realise that it's not compring like with like but it illustrates the vast difference between what Muffer says/correctly illustrates and what's happening.

[Bruce_in_Oz]

I suspect that there is also a "conditioning" factor.

How many people grow up in the "conditions of yesteryear.

Helping "dad" behead the "Sunday roast" chicken.

Wringing the necks of quail or pigeons.

Watching the shooting of an old family horse or dog because it can't stand up anymore.

Having family members of all ages die in their beds in the same house.

Helping butcher a familiar cow / goat / sheep etc, for food for the family.

.......and so on and on.

One of the huge changes wrought in the 20th Century was the "isolation" of death.

Meat is something that arrives in neatly cut pieces on styrene trays and wrapped in polythene.

Almost NOBODY except hunters and farmers kill and butcher their own meat.

People die in hospitals or "respite" centres.

The survival rate for disease AND combat injury is incredible in comparison with ANY time pre-WW2, thanks to medical science.

TV and films provide a weirdly "sanitized" portrayal of death and maiming: there are none of those distinctive "smells" for a start.

I have never been in combat and I am keeping my fingers crossed. However, I have ended up on the scene of several very nasty road "accidents", including a few "fatals". After the "training" has played its role to get things done, the knees go wobbly and "a good sit-down, black humour and a stiff drink" are in order, especially after the really "messy" ones. How the ambulance crews, cops and fieries etc, who deal with it on a daily basis, cope, is astounding.

Another situation is the train drivers who literally come face-to-face with suicidal types who step out onto the tracks and look straight into the drivers cabin up to the point of impact. A friend of mine decided to get another job after he had "collected" his third suicide with the front of his train. Most of his fellow drivers who have experienced the same, "retire" after the first one; counseling can only do so much.

[Paul S.]

Bruce, I agree that 'conditioning' has a lot to do with it. Conditioning to hardship, pain, and suffering as well as to death - and understanding that they are natural and common human events, allows one to accept and endure all manner of trauma.

I saw my first dead man when I was 17 years old. He died before my eyes, at my feet when he was thrown during a car smash. Even then, I had an understanding that dismemberment or disability and death were a possible consequence in life.

[mike webb]

The PROBLEM that many outsiders are now up against is that it's not just some (it's still a very small proportion apparently) of the ex servicemen who suffer from this, it is now ambulancemen, Policemen, Firemen. Enough said there as it'd be a tough call to call this battle related. But in a case in point recently, an electricity board man who watched his friend virtually fry alive while working in an old electricity sub station. The irony there was that he is now permanently disabled with PTSD........... and guess what........... the friend who was literally fried alive was off work for 6 months, recuperated and is now back at work! I realise that it's not compring like with like but it illustrates the vast difference between what Muffer says/correctly illustrates and what's happening.

That is a whole other nasty can of worms. Here in Canada the government has come under fire for being obstructionist with vets claiming PTSD. One vet who suffers from it recently commented that the soldiers have only themselves to blame for most of the delays in getting treatment. He says the PTSD "gravy train" has attracted a lot of malingerers who are anxious to get a fat pension or settlement when their only ailment is greed!! This is from the mouth of a vet who has been through the system and jumped through all the hoops. A good friend works as a civilian employee on a nearby military base and tells me abuse is rampant by those returning from Afghanistan and a running joke locally. Some who barely set foot in the country are claiming they are unable to function due to PTSD. Personally I find it hard to sympathize with most who are volunteers and signed up to be soldiers. Being a soldier is an honourable profession and if you sign up you are aware of the possibility that you will be sent to other parts of the world and live in bad conditions and experience nasty things. Those with physical wounds are subject to the same bureaucratic BS when they return, one Canadian infantryman lost a leg from an IED in Afghanistan and to keep getting disability benefits every year he has to submit documentation that his leg is still missing!! As far as I know limbs do not grow back but I haven't had the training of the paper pushers at DND.

[Bandit12]

I've done some work with PTSD, not vets but children/teenagers with trauma. My wife has had two bouts of PTSD from her work wearing a blue uniform (actually she doesn't wear the uniform, preferring plain clothes) from several shootings and recovering dozens of bodies in the Black Saturday fires. She still loves what she does, but the old signs of PTSD never really go away, in her case hyper-vigilence, threat assessment and situational awareness are now just a part of her normal life. From my position, having worked with it as a psych and lived with it at home, it's not so much what the trauma was that gets you, it's everything you do about it every day afterwards that really makes or breaks a person.

[muffett.2008]

Home early from my holiday in North QLD.
This original thread is now a bit mute, the young bloke I was mentoring chopped himself........drove his car into a tree, the only one on a straight stretch.
Found 5 calls on my answering machine from him............I just wasn't there for him, sorry....this makes me feel real bad.

[browningautorifle]

the young bloke I was mentoring chopped himself........drove his car into a tree, the only one on a straight stretch.
Found 5 calls on my answering machine from him............I just wasn't there for him, sorry....this makes me feel real bad.

I'm sorry to hear that. I can imagine how you feel. But...in the long run, there was nothing you can do to stop it. Slow it down perhaps, but in the long run you can never tell what will happen. You can't blame yourself.