Jungle Carbine Import/Export Marks

[Brian Dick]

I disagree with you Robert. The country of origin stamp requirement came into place in the mid 1930's. Most firearms found in the USA that have it were definitely imported prior to 1968 when the Gun Control Act was passed. At that time with regards to firearms, the country of ORIGIN requirement was changed to country of MANUFACTURE. The rifle in question is very likely as Aussie 48 states, brought back prior to the GCA '68 and not through commercial channels OR it may have been imported post 1968 and the import marks were not applied. Many thousands of rifles have been imported since 1986 when they started allowing surplus C&R military firearms back into the USA. Warehouse employees are human and it's just common sense that some slipped through the cracks without being so marked.

[Seaspriter]

The country of origin stamp requirement came into place in the mid 1930's. Most firearms found in the USA that have it were definitely imported prior to 1968 when the Gun Control Act was passed

Thanks Brian, I stand corrected and appreciate your insights. Boy, there must have been a lot of sloppy folks out there or back door dealing -- I have at least a half dozen Enfields with no country of origin stamped (and believe me I have looked!)

[mahbann]

The answers are staring you in the face if you think about it instead of expecting to be spoon fed. It may have been brought into the US by someone who purchased hth rifle in the UK, Australia, NZ or any country that that requirement didn't apply. It may have also been imported into the US before that requirement was made legal, who really gives a Rats Arse it doesn't have one.

Because I'm a history major and I wanted to know? Not trying to waste anyone's time I was just curious. I work all day I can't surf forums all day long..didn't mean to offend anyone was just curious on the history of it so I thought I'd ask..thought that was the point of these forums was to ask questions. Just because you don't care about if it's been imported legally or not doesn't make it a stupid question to ask/care about. By no means did I mean to annoy anyone on this forum I 100 percent admit I am new to milsurps and just want to know as much as possible. I'll try searching more before I ask questions to avoid annoyance.

[Brian Dick]

If your rifles don't sport post 1968 import marks it's entirely possible they got here any number of ways. We share a border with Canada and you know many have come down here in years past by other than the usual, (read LEGAL), channels. I was being inspected by CBP one Friday afternoon many years ago at Port Huron, Michigan knowing full well there were probably more guns flowing into the USA in the non-truck lanes because there was a big show at the Gibraltar just down the road a piece that very weekend. I saw the signs all over I-94 when I was heading to Canada to get the load earlier that week. Of course, the Customs inspectors were busy checking off serial numbers from my approved ATF Form 6 permits! On the other hand; if they're recent imports which really should be pretty obvious since most came from the far east, India or Pakistan, they may have just missed them. Picture the warehouse stacked from floor to ceiling with No.5's from the far east at Century Arms.

[Seaspriter]

I thought I'd ask..thought that was the point of these forums was to ask questions.

Don't be dismayed -- keep asking your questions -- it's the best way to learn. The only dumb answer is the one not asked. We all started as ignorant, and the best of us (that's not me) are still learning (I still am). It's been said that real masters of any field are the best students as well.

I think what Aussie48 is driving at (pardon me if I misinterpret) is that you must also dig, research, and learn. Be sure to download and read all of the Laidler Library and research other threads -- they are enormously revealing. I am thinking of putting my entire Enfield research files into an open Dropbox where anyone can access them and contribute their research as well. If this is of interest or value to people, chime in.

---------- Post added at 07:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:31 PM ----------

Picture the warehouse stacked from floor to ceiling with No.5's from the far east at Century Arms.

Thanks Brian, as usual you have answered a "puzzlement." I actually have a picture of some of the Interarmco warehouse stacks which I'll post if anyone is interested.

[scoobsean]

Don't be dismayed -- keep asking your questions -- it's the best way to learn. The only dumb answer is the one not asked. We all started as ignorant, and the best of us (that's not me) are still learning. It's been said that real masters of any field are the best students as well.

I think what Aussie48 is driving at (pardon me if I misinterpret) is that you must also dig, research, and learn. Be sure to download and read all of the Laidler Library and research other threads -- they are enormously revealing. I am thinking of putting my entire Enfield research files into an open Dropbox where anyone can access them and contribute their research as well. If this is of interest or value to people, chime in.

Stratton's books are a good, cheap, read (although contain some errors) and if you are really interested in the history of the rifles (and can stomach the cost) get Skennerton's tome

[Vincent]

Gun people here are not keen on things that have been screwed up by stupid laws. So, not having an import mark makes it more desirable.

[Brian Dick]

Of the hundreds and hundreds of Lee Enfields I've had through here since their release from reserve stores in the late 80's and onwards until the early 2000's, the quality of most was way above average. Some of the first Interarms marked No.4's released directly from the MoD disposals unit at Donnington in the late 80's were in near new condition. The same held true for Lithgow rifles direct from Australian stores. The Lithgow SMLE's I ordered when I first got licensed in 1990 were from Pacific International and were gorgeous rifles. John Jovino in New York had a treasure trove too. There were also wartime dated No.4 rifles in newish condition. Not just new 1950's dated No.4Mk.2's which came later. The best rifles were stored as reserve rifles while many earlier releases were culled for one reason or the other so it just stems to reason that post 1968 imports were generally in better condition then rifles released prior to that time. Later, I got 400 No.4 rifles from a big distributor in SC that were also imported by Interarms but from South African stores. There was a block of 33 Savage rifles that were excellent to like new sans a few dings and dents from handling and a very few Long Branch rifles with wartime dates. The majority were early Fazakerley production to include some of the first No.4Mk.2's. Wow, I wish I had them all back! I learned to pretty much regard the import marks as just another part of the history of the rifle. I know the anal collectors hate it but it's a fact.

[Frederick303]

I would point out the England stamp can be missing from a pre 1968 Enfield Rifle. The law required the rifles to be identified, it did nto require them to be marked. The England stamp was added to meet the impor requirement, but was not always present on a rifle for the following reasons:

1 ) Imported from a country other than the UK. I have been lead to believe that century imported a quantity of No 1 MK II rifles from either Belgium or Portugal that had no such England stamp. I have read a few different stories on that, but it is apparent that Portugal got rid of their No 1 MK III rifles from WWI post 1963 and that they ended up in Century arms hands. Apparently never sent out with any such ID.

2) The Irish lot that came in direct from Ireland in 1961 had no such stamp. To meet the requirements of to identify the country of origin each rifle was shipped with a slip certifying it was from Ireland.

[Beerhunter]

yea see I dont have any BP mark all I have is the NP which I think is just the nitro proof before 1954 for London and I have the London commercial proof but no "England" stamped anywhere on the rifle :/

Your rifle was Proofed in London and the marks are post 1954.