Help recognising de activated l1a1

[Peter Laidler]

What do you mean by a Vietnam war break rifle........ and cutting it about? I was with 3 Inf Bn's on and off and we never had cut-about rifles. Just bog standard L1A1's and 2's.

Some were camo painted but the general Inf blokes used standard kit. So said, there were rifles used by 'others' with cut short barrels but I never saw one and in any case you were very limited as to just how far you could cut the barrel short. That's because, using standard 7.62mm NATO ammo, cutting past a certain critical length, the operating gas, as all gas does, takes the line of lease resistance and............ anyway, it fails to re-cock! That's why when trials were undertaken to supply 'short' rifles to Malaya, they had to compromise with a short flash eliminator.

MUCH more to it than that of course but shortening barrels and the effects of flash eliminating/eliminators was a regular feature of the weapons design courses at RMCS

[mrclark303]

Evening Peter, its the so called ASAS Bitch/Break rifle that I will try to re-create, all seem to be a bit different, some with short barrels, some more modestly converted with simple cut back FE's, pistol grips added to the forend and L2A1 selectors/short pistol grip trigger plungers to allow full auto plus the straight 30rd magazine..

Add a camo paint job and bobs your uncle... A question you might be able to answer Peter, do you know what weapon camo colours were used in general at that time?

[Peter Laidler]

Don't know about the camo paint but black and olive/drab green were the standards. I have seen an L1A1 pistol grip fitted to a set of handguards but only in pictures and not in the flesh. BUT, quite how a pistol grip mounted through a set of wooden handguards with one screw will support a rock and roll L1A1 is a bit of a mystery to me. Even more so after having fired quite a few rock and roll L1A1's and L2A1's.

Annanuvverfing too..... Even if you had a rounded support plate inside the radiussed bottom section of the handguards, how do you get inside to screw the grip screw up tight......... when the handguards are fixed to the rifle. I suppose you could drill out the threaded insert and screw in from the bottom but you're getting into quite technical water now.

A similar set of circumstances occurred when the trials section were trying to design and fit fit arctic sling attachments to the L1A1 handguards. Difficult..... because the internal fixtures would pull through the wood and later plastic h/g's. Only solved with a purpose made band and clamp and hook affair was invented/suggested by a Royal Marine Armourer who's still with us, living in Plymouth! Hi Steve.....

[adrianc]

Hi mrclark 303
Yes you are correct about the condition of the paper weight lol ,the wood isnt the best and theres pitting under the pistol grip and also on the return spring tube and the serial number is nearly worn away ,but i was desperate to get one and this one was available at the time . Thats why i was trying to find out as much as i could about it ,i cant seem to find a copy of the slr book anywhere as i think it tells you what furniture was on it when it was sold ,but I'm very grateful to peter for telling me who it was sold too .

---------- Post added at 09:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:42 PM ----------

Peter when i was in basic at lichfield one of the corporals in my sections a (Stafford) had a wooden pistol grip on his for-grip held on with a large hose clamp he also used a lmg mag with it

[mrclark303]

Hi mrclark 303
Yes you are correct about the condition of the paper weight lol ,the wood isnt the best and theres pitting under the pistol grip and also on the return spring tube and the serial number is nearly worn away ,but i was desperate to get one and this one was available at the time . Thats why i was trying to find out as much as i could about it ,i cant seem to find a copy of the slr book anywhere as i think it tells you what furniture was on it when it was sold ,but I'm very grateful to peter for telling me who it was sold too .

---------- Post added at 09:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:42 PM ----------

Peter when i was in basic at lichfield one of the corporals in my sections a (Stafford) had a wooden pistol grip on his for-grip held on with a large hose clamp he also used a lmg mag with it

I have just such a piece, re- created by our very own tankie of this parish, pics when I get a chance..

[tankhunter]

I Thank You!............

[Peter Laidler]

Large hose clamp……… jeeeeeees…………, where do they find them? What else can I say except that I doubt it'd last more than 5 mts once the muck hit the fan. Or 2mts on a bad day!

[tankhunter]

Pete, I Modified a PLASTIC P.G & it was fitted around PLASTIC H.G's. They were used exactly like this in Northern Ireland by 3 Para. That is where I first saw them, when I was attached to the Battalion Myself. As you know, there are certain 'Fad's' that occur within different regiments/ Battalions. Who like to come up with ideas that raise their heads that are not quite 'Official'!....... This get's seen by some guys from another regiment & thought, 'That's a good idea, Im going to copy that'...... And so the myth/ idea/ modification/ etc perpetuats. a typical one was stowage baskets on the rear of Ferret Scout Cars. NO official plans/ drawings/ regs etc passed. But almost every ferret in every unit had one made in the L.A.Ds & fitted. The Ferret was a very small recce armoured car, for thos who are not familiar with them. And space is VERY restricted inside. When you are carrying personel weapons, mags, food, maps, radio sets, sleeping bags, Field stores, etc, etc. You cans see why this situation occurred. L1 Bayonets were another 'Idea' that I was asked to do. IE: Cut the pommel off & fit an L7A2 GPMG plastic carrying handle on the Tang. All held in place with Araldite Glue. Hey presto! A 'Fighting Knife'!........ Rubbish in my Eye's, But that's what some of my Mates wanted. So.............'Thank's for the Beers Chaps' !........

[Peter Laidler]

It's the old saying that goes something like '…….. give a man a hacksaw and a hammer and anything is possible'. The problem - if it ever is one - is that years hence, these little things become hard and fast 'official' facts. Some things become demi official or receive tacit approval. Things such as the water bottle carrier wired onto the side of the GPMG/L7 guns to carry a loose belt of ammo. Reliable, less bulky than the box, can't(?) be damaged by jungle and was a well liked idea.

Off at a tangent a bit….. The belt box that was the official way of carrying a loose belt of 50 rounds was a UK Military idea of the mid 60's or so on which we once again had to pay a sort of reverse royalties fee to FN (like the top mounted butt sling swivel…..). And guess what FN did with the idea……….? Yep, incorporated it into their own design, just like the top mounted butt sling swivel. But fair do's, they did forget the fee that they'd earlier imposed.

Back to the hand guard fitted pistol grip idea. When the trials people at Warminster, Woolwich and Shrivenham got hold of it, it it subject to months of user, scientific and mechanical trials. You can bet your bottom dollar that when it came to the mechanical integrity of such a modification, with clock and anti-clockwise forces and loads against the stress loads of wood or polymer handguards, it'd fail at the first hurdle. I don't know of course as that part never affected me but I was called in to ITDU for some trials (the Mini gun and GPMG barrel nut trials being ones that REALLY stands out………) but they were pretty harsh and uncompromising. But give a bloke a hammer and a hacksaw and a jubilee clip and……….

Jeeeeeeees, it's sooooooooo hot here in SC. How did I ever stand this heat and humidity in Oz and Malaya?

[Gil Boyd]

Jeeeez spellin again Peter