Triple Lock? .455 Webley, s/n 12473

[Rick]

So, the Regiment just got back from a European WW1 and WW2 battlefield tour (along with having lunch with the Colonel In Chief, Queen Elizabeth II). I ended up socializing and talking with members I don't usually do that with, and out of all of that came an invitation from one of our retiring sergeant majors to have a look at his grandfather's old revolver and possibly buy it.

So I went over to his place today to have a quick look. Ended up staying for three hours just looking at stuff... he is a military packrat, just as I am. We both date back to the FN FAL, but that is another story.

So this is what I ended up with (sorry for the pic quality, but all I had was my Rugby Smart for a camera):













I will try and get better pictures once my camera's macro lens returns from being sent for repair.

Along with the revolver and holster were WW1 medals, FMPs, and something I really love... maps!.

Here's just a few pics from maps of Amiens... some of you may of heard of it...

Battle of Amiens - The Canadian Encyclopedia

And, the best pictures I could get of parts of the maps:



















Anyways, that's picture heavy enough for now. But I found his personal maps, field message pads, medals, shaving kit, etc almost as interesting as the old warhorse of a pistol.

So, anybody care to tell me what I appear to have purchased?

The fact his grandfather was an officer during WW1, the maps, the notebooks, the medals, etc suggest he carried this in WW1 and kept it after war's end. I did get some examples of stamping that came out clear enough, but I do not see any of the Canadian/Brit stamps that are on a .455 Webley that has been in the family since WWI, a Ross, a Long Branch, etc.

Also, any idea on value for insurance - minus maps, medals and personal effects? The maps need to go to a museum, but no museum will be getting their hands on the revolver until I'm on the other side of the sod. I'll be out shooting it alongside the Webley.

Information

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[Patrick Chadwick]

It was apparently usual, at least up to WW1 (I know nothing about later) for officers to purchase their own side-arms. These were thus property of the individuals concerned and not army property. Hence the civilian proof stamps and total lack of military acceptance stamps, regimental markings etc. As a result, it may be plausible that it was used by an officer, but it is not provable from the revolver alone. Other documentary evidence (ownership by a serving officer at the time) would be necessary.


The "triple-lock" was apparently made from 1908 to 1915, with a total of approx. 15000 manufactured. Lacking more precise information it seems that this revolver was a private purchase in the middle of that period, say 1912.


The items with the greater historical interest are IMHO the maps, as these were only of value for the users for a limited time and therefore constitute ephemera that were mostly discarded. Today, such topical maps are surely a fascinating resource for military historians, but of no practical value to anyone else. The best destination for them is, as you have rightly concluded, a museum.

[Lee Enfield]

OK there are 2 groups of .455 Triple Lock revolvers, with separate serial numbers (so it is possible [but highly unlikely] to have 2 .455 triple locks with the same serial number!).

1. Triple Locks manufactured as .44 Specials which were converted by S&W to .455 - they will usually not have caliber markings and are numbered sequentially as .44 specials (so they will usually show higher numbers [like yours]).
2. Triple Locks manufactured as .455s - Serial numbers start at ``1``, (mine is under 300) barrels should be marked ``.455``. Second Model Hand Ejectors IIRC (without the underlug) should continue this serial number group to approx. 75,000

[Rick]

It was apparently usual, at least up to WW1 (I know nothing about later) for officers to purchase their own side-arms. These were thus property of the individuals concerned and not army property. Hence the civilian proof stamps and total lack of military acceptance stamps, regimental markings etc. As a result, it may be plausible that it was used by an officer, but it is not provable from the revolver alone. Other documentary evidence (ownership by a serving officer at the time) would be necessary.

Being as I am not an offishul collector (and as a career senior NCO I don't attach any particular value to the generic officer class and their accoutrements to begin with) my view and admiration of the revolver is not influenced by the idea that a weapon was owned and used by an officer instead of an NCM. As far as that goes, my great-great-grandfather was the RSM of the Gordon Highlanders. Arguably therefore, I would place considerably more personal value in this revolver had it been owned by an infantry sergeant or WO rather than by a Rupert. But frankly, I don't care either way - this man spent a lot of time in the trenches, and to me, with that kind of service, his rank matters not one whit.

However, as it happens, if it ever does matter to somebody, sometime, somewhere, after I have left for the long dirt nap and the ownership of this revolver has been passed on, this revolver is indesputably the property of a Canadian infantry officer who served in WWI. Along with the revolver there is his name, his medals, his WWI versions of the FMP, his maps, his shaving kit, pictures of him kneeling in officer's kit with the colors while a lady attaches a guidon to the colors, and so on. Initial information shows that he was with one of the militia regiments who were amalgamated into 2nd Battalion, CEF, and that unit was folded into the Googly Fooglies after the war. More to follow when I get the time to explore further.

I appreciate that is important to some people whether he was an officer or not does affect the financial value. For people like me, I am almost more interested in those incredible maps that are in such good shape they look like they were in use yesterday. Some of them were printed just days before the battle of Amiens - they are hand marked with report lines and notes, just as we mark our maps today. Think of that: nearly 100 year old battle maps, printed on linen paper, back before the days of map tack. Just the PAPER and PRINTING is fascinating. But then, I've been a map freak ever since my first stint in recce, and historical maps in particular I put a great deal of value in.

What's sad is that all of this sat out in trunks out in a shed for decades. The previous owner said nobody did anything to protect it, and the other trunks and their contents were ruined by water damage. That this revolver and the maps, medals, personal belongings survived is only by sheer luck. Imagine what was lost! Thank God for military packrats from all periods of time (I say that being one...).

As for specific details of the Triple Lock in Commonwealth service, for the benefit of the members, I received this from a member of the S&W collector society today (I think parts of this are excerpts from a book for S&W collectors):

Dang, you hit the jackpot, what a package!

The old warhorse is a warhorse we don't often see! We see a ton of 455s but not only does yours appear to be all original, great condition, and a Triple Lock, but based on its serial # 12473 it’s not a 1st or 2nd version (see below) and appears it can only be one of the 691 3rd version which are generally shrouded in mystery. Because reportedly they sold commercially, so was it or wasn't it shipped to England???

Officers (and I presume when you were told his grandfather was an officer, he meant an English officer) were expected to supply their own sidearm. Perhaps it was purchased commercially in England.

This may account for the relatively scant English stampings compared to most military 455 revolvers that we see.

There were three basic versions of 455 revolvers produced by S&W during production for the Brits. Each of the three versions included triple locks.

The 3 Versions of Hand Ejectors chambered in .455 Mk II for the British are:

1. “.44 HE 1st Model”, ‘Triple Lock’ with .455 Mk II chambering: 812* factory reconfigured unassembled or unsold ".44 Spl HE 1st Models", often not stamped .455, original chamberings unknown, most or all likely .44 Spl, 666 for the British #1104 thru 10417 (obviously not inclusive of all serial #s), the extra 146 in serial range #9858-10007 for the commercial market; 123 in England and 23 in the US [N&J pgs. 204-205]. These 812 .455 TLs were serial #’d in the .44 1st Model serial # range of 1 to 15375. Shipped 1914-16.

* SCSW reports "over 800", but by shipped serial # count, it’s actually 812, 146 of which are commercial guns [S&WN&J pgs. 203, 204 & 205].

NOTE: Of the 146 .44 HE 1st Models that were converted/built as .455s assembled some time after the first 666 military .44 1st Model .455 TLs and sold commercially, 123 were sold to the British, shipped to Wilkinson Sword 10/1/14 and 23 sold in the US, shipped to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis, MO. on 1/1/1918.

2. “.455 Mk II HE 1st Model”, TL in the new .455 British serial # range 1 to #5461 [H of S&W pg. 201] made 1914-15; thus creating a possible ~ 68 duplicate serial #s of the 812 “.44 HE 1st Model TLs, also in .455 chambering in 1. above.

3. “.455 Mk II HE 2nd Model” (sans extractor barrel shroud and 3rd lock, but with slightly larger cylinder/frame window dimensions from the 44 and 455 HE 1st Model TLs) continued in the .455 1st Model TL Brit serial range beginning #5462 to #74755, shipped 1915-17. Feb 1916 724 manufactured for the Canadians, chambered in 45 Colt, presumed for the RCMP [H of S&W, pg. 203]. The Canadian military also bought 14,500 of these 2nd Models. And 1105 2nd Models released for commercial sales in the US, shipped Dec 1917 to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis [S&WN&J pg. 216].

“As the Brit contracts were finishing up in [April] 1916, S&W found enough [44 HE frames and 455] parts to build 691 .455 HE 1st Model Triple Locks [.44 HE 1st Model”, TLs with .455 Mk II chamberings]. *These guns will be numbered in the .44 Spl serial number series [could be the 1st or 2nd Model .44 Spl serial numbers; H of S&W, pg. 203]. I have no idea why they were not just numbered in the .455 series. Perhaps it was .455 barrels and cylinders that the factory found, and they simply turned again to existing 44 HE 1st Model TL frames to use them up. They were sold commercially.” Lee Jarrett

*Although the last 691 TLs are likely numbered too high (12000 to 13000 and higher, sold in 1916 and 1917 - Many were sold to Shapleigh Hardware Co. and Simmons Hardware Co., St. Louis, Mo.) And not likely to possibly have a duplicate number in the .455 HE 1st Model TL Brit contract serial range #1 to #5461, we don’t know anything with certainty.

This 455 begs for a S&W Historical letter to find out where it shipped!

Anyways, it will be fun getting out to the range with this revolver along with the Webley, not to mention learning more about the man himself and getting a view of what life was like in the Canadian infantry a century ago.

[Lee Enfield]

Roy Jinks told the previous owner (also a S&W Collectors Assn. member) of my Second Model Hand Ejector Target that the S&W letter will just say that it was shipped to Remington in 1915/16.

Remington was the shipping collection point for the British Purchasing commission.

Your .455 is definitely worth a letter.

[Rick]

Yep, I will probably do that.

At the immediate point, I am more interested in finding out how to properly scan those old battle maps with a flatbed scanner. Meaning: ensuring no damage is done while doing so. I suppose a visit to the Glenbow or similar museum is in order before doing that. Flatbed scanning of large maps is not something I have never done before, but never with historical maps like these.

But once digitized, then the maps can be shared with anyone who wants a copy. Won't be the same as handling and looking at the originals and realizing you have in your hands maps that were used and carried at the Battle of Amiens, complete with bits of dirt in the creases. But just inspecting the detail and the hand written markings on the maps is quite a start.

I bet there are more maps out there than we might think. Some people may think soldiers just threw their maps out after a battle because they were now out of date. However, I have my maps from Medak, Op Backstop, etc from 20 years ago and I am not the only guy on that tour that brought those maps home with him. There are a lot of maps floating around here right now from A'Stan and the various operations over there. None of those guys have any intention of doing anything other than keep those maps.

Lots of us are packrats.

I don't think maps from battles and operations are as rare as we might imagine; the hard part is that most of them are squirreled away somewhere and people do not realize what they have in those "old maps of Grandpa's". They're out there; we just don't know where they are. That's the tricky bit.

[Beerhunter]

The pre-1954 London civilian Proof marks and the lack lack of British military marks suggest that this is indeed a private purchase revolver.

Second, the serial number is way too high for an "issued" triple lock. The issued Hand Ejector 2nd model serial numbers follow on from the Triple Lock and my early example of the former example is only four figures (6xxx). (Of course it may have been renumbered at some point.)