Enfield Question....

[afo]

A little back ground first......my first hunting rifle was my .303 given to me by my father when I was 14 and it was given to him by his father. My grandfather tried to "sporterize" it...he cut about 12 inches of the wood off of the front of the gun. I recently found the nose cap and the bayonet (which is also tried to turn into a hunting knife...looks like he ground it down ot make it shorter). About 8 years ago, I sanded down the wood to bring out the original colour and it is beech. This is when I noticed the stamping in the butt (S-arrow-A). I was told by someone that is meant South Africa and never really thought about it since. Recently, the gun has been sparking my interest..."where did it come from?" and "Who carried it and had it seen any action?" are all questions that began running through my mind. Over the last couple weeks, I have discovered that the stamp indicates Post Independance India. There is also an 'S' stamped in the wood behind the trigger guard possibly indicating a Shortened Butt. The GRI stamp also indicates that the rifle was manufactured in Ishapore. All of the serial numbers are matching, including on the rear sight which is guaged from 200-2000 yrds. It is a No.1 Mk III but the date stamp is 1944....from what I have been reading, No. 1 Mk III's were "obsolete" because of the production of the No.4 Mk 1.....is this true? All of the No.1 Mk III's I have seen online seem to be pre-WW2 (or maybe I haven't been looking hard enough). Also, how would a 303 from India make its way to my grandfather is little Sutton, ON Canada? I would someday like to restore it back to it's original condition.

Information

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[Jim K]

The No. 1 Mk III SMLE was produced all through WWII. The British factories were set up to make it and production could not be stopped to convert to making the No. 4 rifle. So after a few No. 4's were made in England, production was farmed out to Canada (Long Branch) and the U.S. (Savage).

Earlier, the British had contracted with Remington to make a modified Springfield in .303, but when much of the U.S. war reserve of Model 1917's (some 1.1 million rifles) was sent to England in 1940, the U.S. persuaded Remington to produce the standard M1903 for American forces, so Savage got a contract to make the No. 4.

Ishapore was never tooled up to make the No. 4, so when India wanted a rifle for para-military forces that would use the same ammunition as the army service rifle, the 7.62mm NATO FAL, they modified the No. 1 Mk III to handle that caliber.

As to how a rifle from India got to Canada, it probably came the same way I got mine, and the same way military surplus arms still find their way to people in countries far removed from their origin - through nations selling off surplus arms for hard currency, international arms dealers, and a local gun store.

Jim

[A square 10]

"The No. 1 Mk III SMLE was produced all through WWII. The British factories were set up to make it and production could not be stopped to convert to making the No. 4 rifle. So after a few No. 4's were made in England, production was farmed out to Canada (Long Branch) and the U.S. (Savage)"

this is not quite a complete and accurate statement -

1) you are correct the no1 mkIII* was produced durring WWII in england , at BSA , and are often refered to as dispersal rifles due to their parts being produced in widely dispersed locations due to the bombings

2) you are also correct that savage and longbranch made no4s in north america - initialy the mkI then quickly converted to the mkI*

BUT -
3) the no4 mkI was indeed manufactured in england durring WWII and in great numbers at ROF FAZAKERLY-600,000+ , BSA SHIRLEY-660,000+ , AND ROF MALTBY -730,000+, from 1941-1945 ,

no flame intended but please read first then make statements , i realise you probably misstakenly phreased what you wrote but you have missled with a flawed statement

[Jim K]

Well, at least I got some things right. You are correct; the No. 4 was made in England at Maltby, Shirley and Fazakerley and in roughly the same total quantity as made in the US and Canada. Enfield made the experimental and trials rifles.

But it is an error to list Enfield as a wartime manufacturer; reportedly, the Enfield tooling and manufacturing systems could not be easily altered, so establishment of new factories was easier.

Jim

[A square 10]

yes , i was typing quickly , meant to note the experimental and trials , when id recognised my left out note i revised it with the quantities , we crossed in posts

i trust you realise id meant no insult here , and noted your correct elements , thanks for correcting my deficiency as well ,

[louthepou]

Hi afo, welcome to Enfield addiction

Re. returning the rifle to its original looks: it's quite feasible, take a look at this post: Restoring a Lee Enfield No1 Mk3* (chambered in .410) - Military Surplus Collectors Forums

You're living in Orillia, lucky you, you can drop by Ellwood's anytime!

Lou

[afo]

Thanks for clearing that up for me gentlemen.
Does Epps have access to the materials I need to refurb? I was on Springfield Sporters and I can order everything i need for pretty cheap. If I just order the forearm and the front hand guard, what are the chances that it will match my butt and rear handguard (Beech wood) ? Or should I order the whole wood kit? I don't really want to loose my original Butt....
I would also like to order the kit that goes in the storage in the butt....any suggestions?

[Peter Laidler]

I'd speak to Brian Dick. You're getting personal answers to your questions...., as to colour and if it's in his stock etc etc.

Apologies if that's advertising

[John Sukey (Deceased)]

Only two things go in the butt, the pull through and the oil bottle. Wrapping the pull through so it will fit will cause a few grey hairs! If the rifle is dated 1944, it is likely the oil bottle will be bakelite instrad of brass. They are quite common, the SAME oil bottle being used in the L1A1

[Irv]

There is a second hole in the butt stock next to the larger hole to take the brass weight of the pull through. Even then it is difficult to store the pull through