Sad day - avro vulcans last performance

[Vincent]

Speaking of old jet aircraft, NASA is still flying a Canberra. I see it flying quite often. NASA Martin B-57 Canberra makes its First Flight in 41 Years

[Gil Boyd]

Vincent,
Where I live, we were blessed with the various series of Canberras for many years buzzing around, and I was fortunate to have a close relationship with 39 Squadron for one reason or another, and a cursory glance at the fireplace I look down at the electric start shell case that each engine needed to fire the start sequence. Everybody that see's it thinks its a 25 pounder case.
I wonder who supplies them with their cartridges, or perhaps they have changed the Rolls Royce Avon Mk 1 engines for a U.S alternative that doesn't need them anymore. The above photo looks like a PR9 version with a new cockpit added to take two........I may be wrong

[Beerhunter]

Getting back to guns. A few years ago at Farnborough I was being introduced to the XH558's chief engineer by the director of Vulcan to the Sky. He said to the Engineer that we were both pistol shooters and so when the government took our pistols off us, he went out and got a nuclear bomber instead. (He was also my boss many years ago.)

And back to aeroplanes. The Royal Air Force kept their Canberras on for so long because the RAF did not have anything else that could fly so high. (Reference: conversations at RAF Fairford.) I reckon that in the end, rather than replace them, they just did away with the requirement.

[Gil Boyd]

A great deal of influence the airframe had, was its stability and also to creat an effective gyrostabilised photographic platform, which no other fast jet could compare at the time, probavbly why NASA still have theirs, testing out cameras.
The Tornado was a far off second when the Canberra got demobbed

[CINDERS]

ARGH a Canberra great clouds of black smoke on start up that's like placing a flag pole up with here we are on it!!!!

[Paul S.]

A RAAF number once told me those great clouds of black smoke from Canberra starts were caused by starter cartridges fired to get the turbines moving or something. Is that correct?

[Peter Laidler]

Really, the notion that a group of private individuals with certain financial backing could restore and run a Vulcan was never really going to be a winner. Even the Daily Mail, a great supporter admitted that it was a money pit. I think they commented that the way to become a poor Vulcan owner was to start out as a rich Vulcan owner. Or were they commenting on our membership of the EU? Come to think of it, both are equally deep money pits!

Any of those even more beautiful H-P Victors preserved? I heard that McD-D modeled the Phantom on those sinister Victor lines. Droop big nose and slender drooped wings

[Vincent]

There was a Victor at Bruntingthorp. I don't know if it's still there.

I think the B-52 "Stratofortress" is probably the oldest bomber still in service. It went into service in 1955, a year before the Vulcan. We have third generation pilots flying them and they are projected to continue in service to 2040.

[Gil Boyd]

Paual,
Yes as that is what they fire those electric start shells into the engine to do, in simple terms.

Well you asked for it and here is the definitive answer:

The Coffman engine starter (also known as a "shotgun starter") was a starting system used on many piston engines in aircraft and armored vehicles of the 1930s and 1940s. The Coffman system was one of the most common brands; another was the Breeze cartridge system, which was produced under Coffman patents. Most American military aircraft and tanks which used radial engines were equipped with this system. Similarly, the British Supermarine Spitfire used the Coffman system to start its Rolls-Royce Merlin engine.[1] The Hawker Typhoon also used the Coffman system to start its Napier Sabre engine.

A derivation of the Coffman starter was used on a number of jet engines, including such engines as the Rolls-Royce Avon, which were used in the English Electric Canberra and Hawker Hunter.



The Coffman device used a large blank cartridge containing Cordite that, when fired, pushed a piston forward. A screw thread driven by the piston engaged with the engine turning it over.[2] This was in contrast with other type of cartridge starter which acted directly to drive the engine piston down and so turn the rest of the engine over, such as those used on the Field Marshall agricultural diesel engines.

The other systems used during the period were electric motors (such as those used in automobiles today), inertia starters (cranked either by hand or an electric motor) and compressed-air starters, which operated much like Coffman starters but were powered by pressurized air tanks.

Shotgun starters are composed of a breech, into which the cartridge is inserted, which is connected to the motor by a short steel pipe, which acts like a gun barrel. The blank cartridge fits into the breech, and is triggered either electrically or mechanically. When the aircraft's ignition is turned on and the cartridge is fired, high-velocity, high-pressure gas (~1000 psi at ~600 ft/s) shoots down the pipe, forcing the motor to spin and engage the starter ring gear on the engine, which is attached to the crankshaft.

Shotgun starters had several advantages over other starting systems in use at the time. Electric starters required large, heavy, and often troublesome batteries to be carried on board, or external charging equipment had to be located at every place where the vehicle was anticipated to operate. Inertia starters used a heavy wheel, usually made of brass, which was spun by a hand crank or electric motor, causing the spinning wheel to engage the starter ring gear. The Coffman system was more lightweight and compact than inertial starters or internal batteries, and it did not require any special auxiliary equipment, an important feature when operating in remote areas.

The primary disadvantages of the shotgun starter are the need to keep a stock of cartridges, one of which is used for each attempt to start, and the short time that the motor is spun by each cartridge. Compressed-air starters, which use the same type of motor, are usually recharged by an engine-driven compressor, negating the need to carry cartridges, but adding requirements for the compressor and air tank. Hybrid systems can be made simply by adding a cartridge breech or an air tank to an existing system. Air tanks can also be recharged from an external source in an emergency, such as a hand pump or a portable air compressor.

The Coffman starter was the most common brand of cartridge starters during the mid-1930s, and the name was used as a generic description. Some modern military diesel engines still use this device, but advances in battery technology have made shotgun starters obsolete for most uses.

[Beerhunter]

Really, the notion that a group of private individuals with certain financial backing could restore and run a Vulcan was never really going to be a winner. Even the Daily Mail, a great supporter admitted that it was a money pit. I think they commented that the way to become a poor Vulcan owner was to start out as a rich Vulcan owner. Or were they commenting on our membership of the EU? Come to think of it, both are equally deep money pits!

Cash was not really the problem - initially - however see later. The major hurdle was the CAA. They were worried that it would fall out of the Sky and needed convincing that the people running the project were professionals not just a group of aeroplane nutters. They still needed to rip out the 1950s technology and replace it with up to date avionics (not cheap) and have the aircraft professionally serviced by Marshall of Cambridge. (Even less cheap.)