1968 MP5 with no serial number

[mrclark303]

Why in 1988 would a "Government" weapon be proofed by a civilian company ... We still had a proof facility at Enfield ( also later one at Nottingham)

What a factory employee says is company policy..... And what actually happens...2 totally different things

.. It could be a ( very good) Bitsa...Lunch box special, made by a competent gunsmith with contacts with many of the different factory's and put through civi proof prior to been serial numbered and put through the books.

Is there a serial number on the deact. cert. ( Twice through proof with no serial number)

Just thinking out loud.......

Evening Andy,

Good points, well, in 1988 Enfield was being wrapped up and I wouldn't think Nottingham would be happy to, (or perhaps be equipped to) proof an MP5, they were after all a dedicated new built L85/86 assembly plant.

A lunch box special is an interesting idea, that's one scenario I hadn't considered, possible of coarse, but I would think unlikely. We all know the Germans are absolute sticklers for record keeping (after all, its got them into serous trouble in the past !) I just don't see them letting an unmarked Receiver out of the factory, especially at quite an early stage in the MP5 production.

Stolen from the factory in a Jonny Cash style "one piece at a time" type scenario, possible I would imagine, but then submitted for proof ... I just don't see it happening.

The serial number on the deactivation certificate is 3/68, I guess that's what they used for proof record too.

I wonder if it was used for Company testing of some type.

[Peter Laidler]

Government proofing of small arms ceased when Royal Ord took over the RSAF Enfield. Thereafter proofing became in-house but on a commercial basis. So all L85/SA80's were commercially proofed although a few early ones and prototypes will/may be cross flag proofed.

[bigduke6]

I wonder if it was used for Company testing of some type.

I was thinking more a display weapon, the type that goes on a display when at fairs etc punting their wares...... but as you say they were sticklers for records and stamping/marking stuff even the last knockings of WW2 they were stamping regardless.

[mrclark303]

Thereafter proofing became in-house but on a commercial basis

So would I be right in assuming the London Proof House set up shop in a corner of the Enfield factory to carry out proofing Peter?

---------- Post added at 11:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:34 AM ----------

I was thinking more a display weapon, the type that goes on a display when at fairs etc punting their wares...... but as you say they were sticklers for records and stamping/marking stuff even the last knockings of WW2 they were stamping regardless.

It could well be Geoff, its such an interesting piece...

[Peter Laidler]

Thread 24, In effect, yes.

[Frederick303]

I seem to recall the bundesnachrichtendienst (BND) made of had made some unmarked scope mounts for old WWII K43 rifles in the post Korea period. I seem to recall it was in one of Peter Senrich books.

Given what is written on Gen Gehlen and The fellow who followed him, I would not put it past being BND contracted. Given what was going on in the 1968 time period, they might have contracted so pieces which were sold off in the late 1980s, after the hands on sabotage parts of the BND stood down.

[mrclark303]

That sounds very interesting indeed, many thanks for the info Frederick, I will look into that, looks like a new line of enquiry has opened up...

Interestingly, of the two other known examples, one is in Germany (still trying to contact the owner), the other example was among a batch of surp MP5's imported by a US dealer. I wonder if that batch originated in Germany??

[mrclark303]

Here's another possibility, Iranian cloak and dagger antics. Apparently the Iranians produced a range of HK Firearms under license (MP5 and G3) and I have heard of a batch of Iranian manufactured G3's .... All with the same serial number!

No good legitimate reason for that one!

It's not beyond the realms of possibility Iran produced iffy deniable HK marked MP5's for export to friendly "organisations" and countries under UN embargo.

Going against this theory, the early build (no spine indent) design of mine and I doubt such an example would have made its way to the UK.

[skiprat]

More thinking out loud.....
How about a slave gun for proofing other components.... So the body would stay in the factory with no intention of been sold.. untill the factory closed.....
Do British issue HandKs have UK proof marks?
I believe the (weapon) receiver in Germany is not as accountable as it is in the UK

[Brit plumber]

From what I've seen of MP5s, the Hk version is marked Hk but the license built guns have another marking in the same place i.e. P.O.F, En etc.

So if this one is marked Hk, surely it is a Hk built gun. A bit like Henry Ford marking all his Jeeps with the ford F script so that he didn't have to fix broken Willys parts under warranty!