Mannlicher M1888 bullet etc.

[yulzari]

I have a M1888 unconverted black powder Mannlicher M1888. It suffered externally from being buried in an Austro Hungarian filthy dungeon for over 120 years ending up on the floor after the shelves above rotted and collapsed. Internally it is fine, good bore (barely used) and everything functions well after very, very extensive cleaning.

I am loading with 53 grains of 3f which leaves room for a tallow/wax wad with card disks front and rear. I can squeeze in up to 62 grains with great care but there only just room to seat a bullet and lubrication is all with black powder in a tight twist 8mm barrel.

The bullet I am using is the Lee 329-205 and a casting of the bore mouth shows that it seals on the rear bands into the groove and the front rides on the lands. This is supposed to be a suitable bullet. The dimensions of the bore are as per new production. This rifle was only in a soldiers hands for 2 years at the very most. Probably I have already fired more rounds through it than the Austro Hungarian Army.

However. Whilst the bullet holes on the target show no signs of tumbling (all perfectly circular) at 50 metres it has trouble finding a 200 metre target. I have experimented with a full 62 grains and that made no difference and it fouled up fast with no lubrication. I have tried hard and soft lead. I have even tried paper patching to ensure that the bullet engages the rifling and help scour the grooves. The patches fall a metre or two in front of the barrel in long strips where the rifling has cut into them.

The rear sights are raised 3 notches to compensate for the lesser charge which at least sprinkles the impacts evenly around the 200 metre target. That is the whole paper, not the black.

The barrel is perfect. The cartridges match all the advice (ex 7.92 cut down and formed). The sights are in good order. I am no great shot but better than this. Charges from 50 to 62 grains have been tried in 1.5 grain increments with no discernable effect.

Unless someone has some insight beyond mine then the finger points to the bullet. The original was a copper covered round nose of 244 grains. My Lee cast bullet is 205 grains which gives the same weight to powder ratio in my 53 grain load.

Now I am aware that the original black powder round of 1888 to 1890 was a solid pellet with an annular gap around the outside for flame propagation. Like the Lee Metford I assume that the purpose of the solid pellet was to control the combustion rate in a cartridge intended for future smokeless powder. Especially as it is possible to force the full service charge in using 3f powder so capacity was not the reason for the solid pellet which followed the Swiss army research. Equally like the Lee Metford, it was designed as a smokeless powder rifle but had to be introduced as a black powder rifle pending indigenous smokeless powder production.

The question is, can anyone recommend an alternative cast bullet that may better suit this rifle? The first of the straight pull military magazine rifles. How hard should the lead be? Given that it is a BP rifle is paper patching a suitable technique as an alternative to the copper jacket of the original?

I would try a smokeless powder as well but I cannot find reliable loads for these wedge lock rifles, Published loads tend to be for the later rotating lug M1890 and M1895 which are stronger. Somewhat like the Schmidt Rubin 1889 rifles which use the weaker GP90 round and are unsuitable for the later GP11 round which is the one in normal supply. By preference Vectan Tubal Tu3000.

Information

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[Eaglelord17]

Here is a copy of the 8x50r data for smokeless powder I have for the original 1888/90 rifles (sorry about the crappy quality of the image). I have not used it (loading 8x50r is one of my next projects) but I will be soon.

[yulzari]

Thank 'ee kindly young sir, I shall have to think about how far back I should reduce the size of load. I am pretty sure these are for a good M1895 rotating head bolt despite the note at the bottom. 35 grains seems not unreasonable at first thinking. IMR 3031 is a match to Tu3000 I am told.

[Eaglelord17]

Well it says 45grns of IMR 3031 for a 227grn bullet, and that it is for a 88 action. I honestly believe most the data which is for the later M90/95 action would also be acceptable for the 1888 action simply because they didn't manufacture a special type of ammo just for the earlier actions (and later on they made the higher pressure 8x56r for the M90/95 action to get its full potential). If it was me, I would try a 40grns of IMR 3031 and work up.

I have used IMR 3031 for .303 British with great results. It is a faster burning powder which usually gets used in stuff like .30-40 Krags (actually where I got my .303 recipe), and .30-30 lever actions. My load for .303 British is 32grns of IMR 3031 under a 150grn bullet, which brings me right on at 100m, so that gives a idea where it is at with the lighter and smaller bullet, and smaller case capacity.

[Patrick Chadwick]

I cannot help with advice on smokeless loading, as I only shoot BP rifles with BP. But the following may help you to achieve more success with black powder. At least it should help you get started with usable results.

1) Establish the maximum possible overall length for the specific bullet in your rifle.

2) If possible, seat the bullet so that it is about 1mm off the lands. This is because the throat quickly becomes crudded up with BP residues, and seating the bullet too far out will lead to a "force fit" after a few rounds.

3) Ideally, the powder charge should be up to the start of the neck when it is well shaken down, and the bullet seating should permit the inclusion of a waxed wad between the powder and the bullet.
BP bullets MUST be lubricated with a wax/grease lubricant, to keep the fouling soft.
For this reason, do NOT use mineral-oil greases.
If lubrication is adequate, after the first fouling shot, the POI should not drop significantly for at least 15 shots (i.e. enough for a typical competition round). If the POI drops lower and lower, then lubrication is inadequate and the bore is caking up hard.

4) Do not use more than about 1/16" compression with Swiss powder, if any. Numerous reports indicate that compression leads to uncertain performance variations.

5) The Lee 329-205 mold appears to be intended for a bullet with a gas check. Do NOT use gas checks with BP bullets, as they hinder the obturation of the base of the bullet that is required for a good fit of the bullet in the bore.

6) For the same reason, for a start use tin-lead bullets with no more than about 5% tin and do not expect more than BP velocities. BH no more than about 10. Maybe 15. No harder. Since, after the first shot, all BP bullets are "crud-riding", leading is not a problem if you keep to BP velocities. And the harder the bullets, the closer they have to be to groove diameter. If you want muzzle velocities above, say, 450 meters/sec, then I recommend copper-plated (not jacketed!) bullets. It is a trade-off - the faster you go, the harder the bullet required and the closer the fit. Some experimentation is unavoidable.

7) With BP, my experience is that the smaller the grains the harder the residue. And if lubrication is inadequate, subsequent shots bake the crud harder and harder and the grooves are filled up, so that in the end you are effectively shooting a smooth-bore rifle with correspondingly poor grouping. Swiss 3f is appropriate for a revolver. It is too fine for a rifle-length barrel. Use Swiss 2f.

8) If the basic recipe works satisfactorily, then you can experiment with harder bullets etc. So take the above as a starting point.

Give it a try, and good luck!